A final word on sterilization

Hi all,

Wasn't sure where to put this but given that cleaning is mentioned for this sub-forum I figured I'd put it here and mods can move it if need be.

In trying to learn more I've read the numerous, conflicting, contradictory, and often downright wrong comments posted re: razor sterilization on this and several other boards. And while I agree that it's a matter of preference, I figured I'd post both the CDC & EPA's spectrum which correlates pathogens and level of disinfection necessary:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwr...es/r217a2f.gif

And also the link (already posted in another) of the comprehensive list of products meeting these requirements in each of the levels:

Antimicrobial Products that Address TB, HIV-1, and Hep B Virus

Now, how far you want to go is up to you but from assessing these, it would seem that if you just want to addres your most common baddies all you need to do is straight ethanol (70%; sold in stores as Ethyl Alcohol) or common household cleaners (Fantastik, 409, Clorox w/o Bleach, Clorox Disinfecting Wipes) that contain Alkyl Dimethyl Ethylbenzyl Ammonium Chloride/Alkyl Dimethyl Ethyl Ammonium Chloride (>.105%) or Hydrogen Peroxide (>0.5%; if you buy in stores, the USP designation means 3.0% so you're good).

Let me say this clearly - ALL of these three will act as INTERMEDIATE-level disinfectants meaning they address TB, Hep, HIV, and your other major concerns...the only ones not addressed by this are the Bacterial Spores in our diagram above. And if you are worried about these, switch to DE, take your razor to a dentist or surgeon and ask them to Autoclave it (or autoclave just your razor's blade, and re-scale it with NEW scales) :w

Now then, to break it down to a simple regimen that will assuage all the paranoid ones out there I've come up with 2 simple regimens which you can use based on what you have laying around:

Method 1:
1. Soak in Ethyl Alcohol (70%), 10 mins
2. Soak in Hydrogen Peroxide USP (3%), 10 mins
3. Rinse under extremely hot water.

Method 2:

1. Wipe with Clorox/CVS/(Whatever brand as long as it has the active Ammonium Chloride listed above and EPA registration numbers on the back) Disinfecting wipes, THOROUGHLY, and allow to air dry.
-If you have a spray, thoroughly spray down the razor, allow to sit for a few minutes (10?) and wipe clean.
2. Rinse under extremely hot water.

Please feel free to use this as a rough guideline and modify, I just wanted to put a definitive thread out there with facts to back up the point that a simple disinfection process with what you have around your medicine cabinet should do the trick for 99% of your common concerns! (And I apologize if people think this is adequately covered in other threads but the info was useful to me and I wanted to compile it in case anyone else could use it)


Disclaimer: If you use my methods and do end up getting something I accept no responsibility. The content presented herein is informational only and is not professional disinfection advice. It is merely a compilation of information from other sources and should be treated as such. If you have doubts, do your own research and develop your own routine. This guide is provided for convenience and I am not responsible for anything you do with the information, it is your responsibility to be absolutely certain that you have adequately disinfected YOUR razor to YOUR satisfaction.

Since this is information meant for everyone, I am going to move it to the general forum.... Thanks for searching it out...

Thank you very much! I have put the post into the safety category of the Wiki: Sterilization - Straight Razor Place Wiki.

It would be nice if someone ironed out a few rough edges WRT language in the Wiki. Thanks!

It looks like all the baddies I'm worried about can be killed with my usuall soapy water and a tooth brush followed by lots of alcahole.

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Originally Posted by ndw76

It looks like all the baddies I'm worried about can be killed with my usuall soapy water and a tooth brush followed by lots of alcahole.

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Yep - clean the razor with the soap then drink the alcohol? :rofl2:

Seriously though, this is really helpful. I have tried to work out what does what with regard to disinfecting, but all I found was conflicting information.

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Originally Posted by darrensandford

Yep - clean the razor with the soap then drink the alcohol? :rofl2:

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This is the method my grandfather used. Drink a lot of alcahole. But I don't remember him using any soap. On his razor or on himself.

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Originally Posted by Sansnom

In trying to learn more I've read the numerous, conflicting, contradictory, and often downright wrong comments posted re: razor sterilization on this and several other boards. And while I agree that it's a matter of preference, I figured I'd post both the CDC & EPA's spectrum which correlates pathogens and level of disinfection necessary:

Now, how far you want to go is up to you but from assessing these, it would seem that if you just want to addres your most common baddies all you need to do is straight ethanol (70%; sold in stores as Ethyl Alcohol) or common household cleaners (Fantastik, 409, Clorox w/o Bleach, Clorox Disinfecting Wipes) that contain Alkyl Dimethyl Ethylbenzyl Ammonium Chloride/Alkyl Dimethyl Ethyl Ammonium Chloride (>.105%) or Hydrogen Peroxide (>0.5%; if you buy in stores, the USP designation means 3.0% so you're good).

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I am sorry to disappoint you but there is nothing really final in science, remember that job security is involved ;-). I would like to thank you for trying to clarify this issue for all of us. One thing that I must point out in defense of previous posts/ers is that very frequently, because of the format of the forum, what is written can be easily taken out of context.

Since you mention both alcohol and quaternary ammonium compounds in your "recipes", I have included this link from the CDC website where the ability of several disinfectants to eliminate certain classes of pathogens is shown:

Appendix </P><P>Disinfectants and Their Properties

As you can see, none of these compounds is really effective against all pathogens or work in all situations (i.e. hard water). Also, the corrosive effects on metal of any of these or their wetting properties have been considered in this study. Note that CDC is not a regulatory agency and does not test, evaluate, or otherwise recommend specific brand-name products of chemical germicides. Even with these guidelines, Local or state environmental health officers might have recommendations for appropriate disinfectant selection and precautions for environmental effect, when using these in large scale.

I understand people's concerns regarding acquiring infections from blades. Because of it, I consider this as a delicate subject.

Al raz.

So without going crazy, is Barbicide all I really need?



R

Being a professional tattooer for a couple of decades I have some experience with auto clave sterilization. I respect the concern people have for sterilizing the used razors that they get off of ebay or from an antique shop, yard sale, or wherever but I don't share it.

I know that the main bug to worry about is hepatitis. It will live on a surface a lot longer then most. The AIDS virus is long gone in a matter of seconds on a countertop or what have you. When I get a razor that hasn't been used in months or years I hit it with some semi-chrome or Flitz and rub it with a paper towel. The honing, stropping and rinsing with hot water is enough for me YMMV.

I apologize, I should have been clearer that this was meant to highlight that a simple alcohol soak and H2O2 soak would eliminate most issues that people are worried about. After reading through several threads I was frustrated at the conflicting information, so I wanted to put together a simple protocol that included redundancies and was accepted as effective against most things that people are concerned about.

I was definitely not looking to create an end-all-be-all of "this protocol will cover everything" because really to do that you'd need to do about 6 soaks and use formaldehyde, and then autoclave the thing (or just melt it down and start again).

But yes, you're absolutely right that there's no absolutes in science :rofl2:That's why my thesis never got finished! However, if you review my OP, the main issues of concern are bacterial and HIV-1, which are well-addresed by any bactricide and confirmed by your chart. HIV dies quickly outside a host and this is thus not as much of a concern but the multiple redundant soaks should address this as well - particularly the peroxide.

So my original point, which is that a simple regimen as I outlined would kill those low-level contaminants of most concern, is still valid. But you're absolutely right that if I wanted to kill bacterial spores like anthrax, this wouldn't work. But if you're trying to kill anthrax on your razors maybe you shouldn't be using vintage razors?

(Please don't be offended by any of my post, I agree with you, and I'm being tongue-in-cheek; my original point was about a simple sterilization technique sufficing for most common pathogens, not about a comprehensive sterilization) Cheers

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Originally Posted by Alraz

I am sorry to disappoint you but there is nothing really final in science, remember that job security is involved ;-). I would like to thank you for trying to clarify this issue for all of us. One thing that I must point out in defense of previous posts/ers is that very frequently, because of the format of the forum, what is written can be easily taken out of context.

Since you mention both alcohol and quaternary ammonium compounds in your "recipes", I have included this link from the CDC website where the ability of several disinfectants to eliminate certain classes of pathogens is shown:

Appendix </P><P>Disinfectants and Their Properties

As you can see, none of these compounds is really effective against all pathogens or work in all situations (i.e. hard water). Also, the corrosive effects on metal of any of these or their wetting properties have been considered in this study. Note that CDC is not a regulatory agency and does not test, evaluate, or otherwise recommend specific brand-name products of chemical germicides. Even with these guidelines, Local or state environmental health officers might have recommendations for appropriate disinfectant selection and precautions for environmental effect, when using these in large scale.

I understand people's concerns regarding acquiring infections from blades. Because of it, I consider this as a delicate subject.

Al raz.

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I completely agree with JimmyHAD... I never used any of those compounds because they all are strong oxidizing agents (hydrogen peroxide, sodium hypochlorite) which tend to oxidize iron in steel...
As I mentioned in a post a while ago, sanding the blade is quite virus and bacteria unfriendly activity...
Along with dipping the blade in heated alcohol or boiling water, or both, and with honing process...:D

Before sterilizing a razor you have to ask yourself: is it necessary?

I do not thinks so as the real nasties HIV and hepatitis B & C do not survive very long outside the human body. So if you buy a razor from someone else ask yourself how likely it is there is any nasty bug left on the blade.

I have never sterilized a blade that I bought off ebay. It takes a week before it arrives and a couple of weeks before I hone it.

Hey man, no apologies needed, this is a friendly discussion and as I said, I appreciate the post very much; there was no offense taken in any way. With my post, I was trying to play devil's advocate to point out that nothing is "perfect". If I am correct, you may be referring to a recent discussion about this issue. I think a correct comment of one of users regarding ethanol being poor against viruses was taken out of context in following posts. Basically because as you, and others, correctly point out, the main concern is centered on Hepatitis and HIV (enveloped) viruses. Not only is Jimmy correct in pointing out the weakness of the HIV virus outside a "living cell" but in a recent visit to a virology lab that is centered on HIV infectivity, I was surprised to learn that they do not wear a lot of protective gear while working with the live virus. The safety measures were completely different when I visited another HIV lab10 years ago. This is definitely the result of more research on the subject.

What I do to clean my razors, is to wash the blade and scales with antibacterial soap. I have used 95% ethanol and iodophors on the blade as well. One bug that does not receive too much attention and "I" would be particularly concerned with is Clostridium tetani, the causative agent of Tetanus, which despite a vaccine and treatment, still fatal in over 10% of the cases. The environment of a rusty old blade seems perfect to harbor this one. Since I am not an expert, I could not say whether this is a real concern. Cleaning the blades seems good but, if the razor is infected with spore forming bacteria, cleaning just the blade is a moot point, even if you autoclave it. I would not go as far as other to say that some of these precautions are unnecessary but definitely seem overkill in most cases. Again, do what makes you feel safe, as long as you do not not harm yourself, others, and more importantly, your razors... ;-)

This is yet another reason to keep your Ebay purchases to a minimum ;-).

Al raz.

The only real protection against tetanus is vaccination. Closricium tetani thrives in oxygen-poor environments. Tetanus starts to grow in deep wounds. The facial skin is very well circulated ( i.e. well oxygenated ) and shaving related wounds superfical.

Baking at 180 °C for 4 hours or more should do the trick. Even destroys endotoxins (4 hours at 230 would be better), which are considered as the most annoying and hardest to remove contaminations.
(Endotoxins are nothing you should worry about though. They're all over the place. ;) )

I still don't know what this would do to a blade's temper.

Alraz - definitely true on the devil's advocate portion of your argument, that even a strenuous regimen doesn't affect the real nasties (which is shown on the spectrum I posted actually). And I'd agree, I just got back from an internship at an infectious disease hospital abroad and tetanic spasms are deeply frightening to watch. That being said, kept up to date, your vaccine should adequately protect for the most part. And I think the latter comment about razor cuts being superficial cuts addresses the great remainder of any tetanus risk.

Zwaplat - Baking at that temp will likely also melt your scales no? Funny story, my thesis work centered around working with bacterial endotoxin (LPS) and live porcine tissue; I was so afraid of injecting myself since I worked with milligrams of the stuff in a very pointy needle, or even getting some of that treated tissue on me... Yikes!

I think the net net of this thread is that if you're genuinely paranoid about bacterial spores or endotoxin or something you need to be cartridge shaving with a new blade daily or buy a new Dovo (though even that, left out could pick up stuff).

Of course it would melt the scales mate. :D Unless they're metal. It might even melt goldwash, for all I know. The stuff is so thin...

I'm not very worried about endotoxins. I can imagine you're a bit nervous if you're using that much in a needle syringe, but anywhere else they're pretty harmless to humans. That's what you've got an immune system for.
Why were you afraid to get those cells on you ? They're not human, so I don't see much problems...and like I said, the LPS isn't that much of a problem as long as you don't inject them straight into your body.

How long can some of these baddies live on the blade anyway? I mean, say you get a razor that has been sitting for a year, untouched. Could anything dangerous still be alive on it?

Would sanding, polishing, honing and stropping the blade likely remove most of what's left?

I honestly keep forgetting to disinfect my blades. I get caught up sanding, polishing, honing etc, and end up forgetting to disinfect. When I do disinfect, though, I just spray some lysol on the blade and let it sit for ~10 minutes. It says it kills 99% of bacteria, etc, and I believe it kills hepatitis as well, but I don't know if it is 100% effective against every type. I really need to be better about this, and I plan to. Hopefully no damage done in the mean time.

A non wet shaving co-worker of mine told me that he cannot remember where he read it (of course) but more people die from infections caused by shaving then by rattlesnake bites or lightning strikes. (it was one or the other, not both together)

Not straight razor shaving or DE specifically but shaving in general by whatever means. I googled "shaving deaths" and came up with the fact that surgeons are beginning to avoid shaving patients' in pre-op.

Anyone know how to find stats for how many shaving related deaths there are in an average year and whether from infection or what ?

If you are concerned then use Barbicide, which is what my state recommends for Tattooists and salons. Or you could autoclave it.

Barbicide has served me well. A one hour soak is all that is needed.

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Originally Posted by Zwaplat

Of course it would melt the scales mate. :D Unless they're metal. It might even melt goldwash, for all I know. The stuff is so thin...

I'm not very worried about endotoxins. I can imagine you're a bit nervous if you're using that much in a needle syringe, but anywhere else they're pretty harmless to humans. That's what you've got an immune system for.
Why were you afraid to get those cells on you ? They're not human, so I don't see much problems...and like I said, the LPS isn't that much of a problem as long as you don't inject them straight into your body.

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It'll definitely melt goldwash. Gold leaf is 24k film and since the wash is even thinner I imagine it would go even more easily than leaf, which is quite easily to melt.

Oh and about the cells, that was more of a grossness standpoint, I mean it was like chunks of pig knee...not something I want accidentally flung onto my arm. Besides the reason I was scared was b/c even if you rinsed it the concentrations were quite high of LPS...so if you accidentally shook the tweezers while rinsing the tissue you could (theoretically) fling it into your eye or something...which would be a bad outcome. And LPS is definitely pretty bad...because even if you didn't inject it, if you got it on your hand and then ate, even a small concentration wouldn't be so good for you.

Right, now I get your point.
The only time I really looked into LPS endotoxin was when I was trying to get it out of a nanobody production run. Suffice to say I never succeeded (just got it purified to a pretty decent level, then quit my job).

I have discussed this with 3 doctors and this is what I was told. Germs don't live on surfaces very long, but some have a longer life span than others. Most germs are killed with just soap and water or sanitizers of some kind. Aids is a weak virus and dies quickly, like within a day. So the only real threat is hepatitis which can live on surfaces where there has been blood contamination for a longer period of time, like a week or 10 days. They all told me that the best protection was to give things time to die. On old razors that no one has used in years and you are sure that no one has cut themselves with, no problems. 0n razors that have been restored and test shaved with, or sent out for sharpening there is more risk. Ask yourself, would you feel comfortable using a tattoo gun that had been used on someone you did not know and then wiped down with alcohol? I am not trying to alarm anyone as this is not a topic that should cause alarm. It is a topic where good information and common sense will make it a no brainer. The routine that I came up with, with the help of my doctors is that I soak my blades down with chlorhexidine( this is a solution used by physicians to sterilize their cold pack surgical instruments) for 20 min., then wipe them down with Clippersol to make sure they don't rust, and then I give them a rest for a couple of weeks before I add them to my rotation. A lot of you guys will probably consider this overkill & maybe it is but I sleep well at night & have enough razors that I can wait 2 weeks for a little piece of mind. Take this for what it's worth it's just the best information I could come up with. My suggestion to everyone is that you get information from your doctor on your next visit, so you can make an informed decision.

Absolutely fascinating! Thanks so much for all the info, its a great resource!

First off singlewedge, how many people who read this have access to an autoclave, I mean I do but I work day in day out in a biochemistry lab.

Also just to add to sterillization techniques. A nice UV light (Germicidal Irradiation, lies in the spectrum between 100 and 280 nm and is used for purification of air, water and surfaces) once overnight for each side of the razor. Nice because there are no chemicals, or it could be a extra/final step for the uber-paranoid. But it may cause a problem from bakerlite scales.

Of course you'll need a really well polished blade for effective UV sterilization since its ineffective at penetrating crevices the size some of our rougher hones might leave effectively.

*Warning All Germophobes Do Not Continue Reading*

New microbes continue to be found all the time like this neat little new thermophilic endospore former, Alicyclobacillus acidocaldarius, whose spores were estimated by classical linear death kinetics to have 10% remaining viable following 4 hours of treatment at 120 degrees C (Autoclave is 121...) So if there were 1000 spores by that theory one could remain viable following 12 hours in the autoclave...


of course the likely hood of them ending up on a razor you havn't brought to an extremophile loving microbiologists lab or dipping it in a hot spring....

Not to mention they need an environment warmer than the human body to germinate into vegetative cells. So no worries.... I just think their pretty neat....

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

A non wet shaving co-worker of mine told me that he cannot remember where he read it (of course) but more people die from infections caused by shaving then by rattlesnake bites or lightning strikes. (it was one or the other, not both together)

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Ummm, I'd want to see the rest of it. Hard to tell how many of those infections were due to bugs on the razor or simply because the razor nicked and then the exposed wound was infected by bugs from somewhere/something else? Usually not an over abundance of bugs where rattlers live. People also usually treat rattler bites pretty aggressively. Razor nicks not so much. Sounds like they didn't match up the numbers too well either. How many people get bit by a rattler compared to how many nick themselves with a razor. And lightning strikes are self sterilizing :D

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Not straight razor shaving or DE specifically but shaving in general by whatever means. I googled "shaving deaths" and came up with the fact that surgeons are beginning to avoid shaving patients' in pre-op.

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You can count on a super high concentration of bugs in a hospital environment...

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Originally Posted by Quick

How many people get bit by a rattler compared to how many nick themselves with a razor.

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I don't know how many get bit but there are only about 5 deaths from snakebite yearly in the US

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Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I don't know how many get bit but there are only about 5 deaths from snakebite yearly in the US

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That's 'cause they first had their sidekick suck out the blood and poison, poured whiskey over it and then went directly to the hospital :). When they knicked themselves with their razor that morning they just stuck a bit of tissue paper on it and let it clot.

The point is that those sorts of comparisons are totally meaningless. First you're comparing apples to oranges, then you're leaving out the numbers, omitting the conditions and actual cause, etc., etc.

1) total number of people killed by space travel vs. total number of people killed by razors --> using a razor is way more dangerous than space travel.
2) percentage of people killed by space travel vs. percentage of people killed by razors --> space travel is way more dangerous than using a razor.

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Originally Posted by ndw76

It looks like all the baddies I'm worried about can be killed with my usuall soapy water and a tooth brush followed by lots of alcahole.

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I would go out and get Ethyl, but as a whiskey enthusiast/collector I have more than one bottle of a dud lying around--not really worthy of drinking. So why not put 'em to good use? :)

My question is if it would be strong enough (they're at about 80 proof--40% ABV). Also would the whiskey damage the blade and such?

Being in the medical field, I can let you guys in on a secret...alcohol is a low-level disinfectant and even household bleach is only an intermediate-level disinfectant. You want something hospital grade like glutaraldehyde http://www.henryschein.com/us-en/Sea...glutaraldehyde

If you're using bleach to disinfect your blades, remember that disinfection does not eliminate microorganisms...it merely reduces the number. Even then, you would have to let your blade sit in the bleach for nearly a full day in order to do a complete cold sterile on it. items like the glutaraldehyde will do a cold sterile in about ten hours and doesn't have the bad reactions that bleach will have on a blade left overnight soaking. Remember that 'hospital grade' means that it has tuburculocidal action and needs to eliminate tuburculosis.

Prior to disinfection or sterilization, consider a run through the ultrasonic cleaner. Sterilants and disinfectants will only sterilize the metal they can reach. In the event that some bioburder (microscopic chunks of flesh, etc) remain on the blade, the sterilant will be innefective in that area and only sterilizes, it does not REMOVE the bioburden.

The glutaraldehyde is great stuff to use just about anywhere in the house, but your house will end up smelling like a dentist's office when you're done.

Here's a quick primer on the disinfection/sterilization http://vetmed.duhs.duke.edu/guidelin...sinfection.htm

If you're not interested in this whole procedure, try spraying your blade with Lysol...ever read the back and see everything it kills on contact...awesome stuff.

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Originally Posted by red96ta

Here's a quick primer on the disinfection/sterilization Guidelines for Sterilization & Disinfection

stuff.

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Are those products available for the general public? And can they all be applied to razor blades? Would Barbicide have the same effects as those?
Also, can you boil all types of razor blade steel? (stainless, carbon steel)
Thanks!

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Originally Posted by kiflo

Are those products available for the general public? And can they all be applied to razor blades? Would Barbicide have the same effects as those?
Also, can you boil all types of razor blade steel? (stainless, carbon steel)
Thanks!

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Barbicide is an excellent, hospital-grade product. I find it strange how little it gets mention on this site.

For anyone who reads the suggestions of the OP and decides to use bleach on a razor, just go ahead and hit it with a hammer and put it out of its misery. Bleach will rust carbon steel right in front of your eyes. Ever seen time lapse photography of frost formation on a window? Well, under a microscope, the rust formation looks just like that. If you feel the need to bleach your razor, then you'd better follow up immediately with a good buffing with a metal polish and hope you get it all removed.

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Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

A non wet shaving co-worker of mine told me that he cannot remember where he read it (of course) but more people die from infections caused by shaving then by rattlesnake bites or lightning strikes. (it was one or the other, not both together)

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I think the odds of being killed by lightning are 1/2,000,000 and 1/50,000,000 for death by snake bite.

You have a better chance of getting a hole in one next time you go golfing than even being "injured" by a razor.

Sorry, these things interest me.

Im a newbie but after reading about this I think its fair to say that:

Dipping the blade in Barbicide for a while, cleaning it with soap and a brush, and boiling the blade for couple minutes and drying it will disinfect the blade enough. Maybe wipe some 70% alcohol and sunlight to be absolutely sure.

But Bleach should be avoided as it damages the blade and wont do any good.

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Originally Posted by kiflo

Dipping the blade in Barbicide for a while, cleaning it with soap and a brush, and boiling the blade for couple minutes and drying it will disinfect the blade enough. Maybe wipe some 70% alcohol and sunlight to be absolutely sure.

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Well, you won't be absolutely sure, but maybe you'll feel better.
If you decide to boil the blade, you'd better be darn sure to protect your scales. Many of them cannot handle the heat of the steam coming off of the boiling water. Whatever effort you use to protect your hand from the heat should also be used to protect the scales.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Well, you won't be absolutely sure, but maybe you'll feel better.
If you decide to boil the blade, you'd better be darn sure to protect your scales. Many of them cannot handle the heat of the steam coming off of the boiling water. Whatever effort you use to protect your hand from the heat should also be used to protect the scales.

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Right, I'm not sure how I would go about boiling the blade yet but I sure won't let the scales over where the steam goes.
And we'll maybe you won't be absolutely sure, but wouldn't it be as sure as can be? Is there anything else that can further disinfect the blade? And would it be enough for disinfecting a new blade?

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Originally Posted by kiflo

Right, I'm not sure how I would go about boiling the blade yet but I sure won't let the scales over where the steam goes.
And we'll maybe you won't be absolutely sure, but wouldn't it be as sure as can be? Is there anything else that can further disinfect the blade? And would it be enough for disinfecting a new blade?

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I think you're way to worried about this. If you're genuinely concerned, the barbicide along would be the best you can do short of autoclaving.

I can attest to the corrosive properties of bleach from personal experience. Years ago before I straight shaved and was using a DE I had bought a brand spanking new mercur DE, don't remember the name but it's the expensive one vision I think. I decided to soak it in about an 80% bleach solution for about 20 minutes to clean it. When I came back the plating was gone and there were big pits in the razor. Actually come to think of it when I trashed that, that's when I decided to get a straight and try that.