E-bay related moral dilemma

Hey guys. As some of you may know I got this W&B from e-bay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWN%3AIT&rd=1
The seller left me a positive rating upon payment and it's a great price but she did not mention the edge-deep nick on the blade right next to the stabilizers. Since she only mentioned "a few black marks", I thought someone just left a black marker mark (that's what they are).
Since I am getting a great deal in any case, I was thinking of leaving her a positive and sending a private warning. What do you guys think I should do? It's a $13 W&B afterall.

Well, as we all saw with the "specially designed sideburn shaver," a large percentage of razor sellers on eBay don't know much about them. They're just unloading junk they've found at flea markets and rummage sales, for the most part.

I'd be ticked off if I were in your shoes, but I don't think I'd take much of my anger out on the seller. It was cheap, after all. If it were a forty or fifty dollar razor? Well, that'd be a different story.

I bought a Dubl Duck Goldedge on ebay for seventeen or eighteen bucks a couple of months ago with quite a nick in the blade. I honed it out and now it's one of my better shavers.

I advise sending her a polite, but disappointed e-mail. Put the ball in her court. Show that razor some TLC and it will return the favor.

If you're happy with the deal, you may just want to let her know you appreciated the transaction and tell her about the defect for future reference. The other thing for future reference is not to be afraid to ask the sellers questions before bidding about nicks, pitting, tarnish, rust or cracks in the blade or handle. Lynn

I was planning on honing out the nick and polishing the razor. Actually from the pic it looked like it was frowning, so I thought I'd need to remove that much steel just to turn that frown upside down. The edge is actually straight. So I'll probably go by the original plan.

Edit: Since there are two people already supporting my original line of action, I'll abide by it. Thank you gentlemen.

I would just chalk it up to the perils of eBay. The nick is visible in the pic, but I can see how it could look like rust or something else. Plus, the fact that there is only one blurry picture and a vague description would set my suspicions off. I once bought an E. Kirschbaum razor off eBay that looked great. Multiple pics from different angles (all with the blade open) and a detailed description. When I got it in the mail and tried to open it, the entire tip broke off at a 45 degree angle from the end of the spine to the edge! The spacer between the scales was way to big and the blade had been forcefully jammed into the handle. Needless to say, when I contacted the seller, he blamed it on me and threatened to leave negative feedback. Wasn't much I could do besides not leaving any feedback. In your case, I'd say try and resolve it with the seller first and see what happens. If it doesn't work out, you have the right to leave negative feedback, but I would reserve that for a situation like Urleebird had not too long ago.

Oh I left her a positive but instead of "*HONEST SELLER* leaves feedback upon payment! Shop with confidence!" I left "Good deal. Fast shipping." I also sent her this message:

Hi. The item just arrived and I left a positive since I still got a good deal, but I do have an admonishment for future razor sales:
The edge has a fairly substantial nick that did not get mentioned in the listing. Next time please mention such damage when listing razors as this will take a lot of work on the hone to remove. Thank you.

Ilija

I hope she listens.

Chalk it up to a learning experience and nicely let her know that the picture didn't show the nicks and many straight razor buyers are concerned about them.

Some people don't expect nicks to be an issue. Woodworkers use straight razors to make carving knives. They don't really care about nicks on the blade because it gets removed in the process. She may be used to dealing with these kinds of people and not shavers.

I was courteous enough in my PM to the seller and now she knows that nicks ARE an issue. Let's hope her descriptions take a turn for the better.

Here's what I do:

1. Contact the seller immediately and ask whether there are any defects that may not have shown up in the photo or in the item description. It gives the seller a chance to really evaluate the items again. This may mean gently running a thumbnail along the edge to check for tiny nicks. Some sellers may not be comfortable doing this. A toothpick can be a nice little probe in that case.

2. If you're not happy with the photo in the auction, ask for close-up shots. Indicate specifically which areas of the razor you'd like to see. I'd think twice about bidding on any item, whether it's a steal or not, if the seller won't at least try to send me some better photos.

3. Ask about returns, and mention that you're a collector who enjoys using the razors and that you really don't want a razor with a substantial defect. Will the seller refund your payment in full if you find a defect in the item? If so, great. If not, go with your gut instinct.

4. If you win the item, inspect it carefully the moment it arrives. If you find a defect that was not clearly photographed or described in the auction, take some photos and e-mail them to the seller with an explanation. Hopefully, a return scenario will have been ironed out with the seller before the razor arrives.

5. Make sure all communications are handled through the eBay system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben

5. Make sure all communications are handled through the eBay system.

---

Please guys I cannot stress what Ben said here enough. I work at eBay (although not in the trust and safety department) and if you take things off eBay (even just the simple communications) it makes it much more difficult for eBay to track things if they go wrong. I hate it when people take things off eBay, then have a problem and eBay can't help because they have no tracking and then not only do people have a bad experience with the seller they end up getting miffed at eBay too. We really do try very hard to "do the right thing" but we are constrained by all sort of legal red tape.

Please, if you're doing any business on eBay keep *everything* on eBay (paypal is part of eBay so that's fine...)

-- Gary F.

So does that mean that I should send all messages through my ebay mail system rather than my email?

Since you are with ebay, I've got to say, I hate the ebay communication system. Alot of my items are described in size, and I often ask quesitons about size. The problem is you can't use " " "'s for inches. You can't use "for quotes" either. I suppose I don't hate it, as much as it's just a PITA when I've gone through and detailed the size of several items and then I have to go through and edit out the "inches" or "quotes". (These restrictions are on the ebay communication system, not auctions or listings)

Also, extra pics can't be sent through the ebay system, can they? So I have to email pics or edit them into the auction?

Sorry to go off topic a bit. I bought a pack of mini drill bit's which showed up with 2$ postage. I got charged $10 and all of the packing was recycled material. When I emailed the seller his response was "Even with the extra fee, you still got a good deal." When I questioned him further he said "I'm an old man with only a few years left on earth. Don't bother me with your petty financial problems." What a joke!



Matt

Quote:

---

Here's what I do:

1. Contact the seller immediately and ask whether there are any defects that may not have shown up in the photo or in the item description. It gives the seller a chance to really evaluate the items again. This may mean gently running a thumbnail along the edge to check for tiny nicks.

2. If you're not happy with the photo in the auction, ask for close-up shots. Indicate specifically which areas of the razor you'd like to see. I'd think twice about bidding on any item, whether it's a steal or not, if the seller won't at least try to send me some better photos.

3. Ask about returns, and mention that you're a collector who enjoys using the razors and that you really don't want a razor with a substantial defect. Will the seller refund your payment in full if you find a defect in the item? If so, great. If not, go with your gut instinct.

4. If you win the item, inspect it carefully the moment it arrives. If you find a defect that was not clearly photographed or described in the auction, take some photos and e-mail them to the seller with an explanation. Hopefully, a return scenario will have been ironed out with the seller before the razor arrives.

5. Make sure all communications are handled through the eBay system.

---

Um he has already BOUGHT and RECEIVED the razor. That was the whole "moral" dilema. he's gotten a good rating from her before receiving the product but received a product with damage not specified in the listing. I don't think the seller's going to want to fly/drive to his place to re-assess the quality and condition of something she's already shipped :p

Quote:

---

Please guys I cannot stress what <censured> said here enough. I work at eBay

---

1) see above
2) Ebay sUx0r

:p

And how is any of this eBay's problem or are you just trying to pick a fight? What do you expect eBay to do, buy a giant warehouse, get everything from every seller, pick through it, then post it for sale themselves like a giant garage sale?

If you think eBay sux0rz so bad, you're welcome to use one of the other competing platforms or take your chances with craigslist and the like.

-- Gary F.

One problem is with general attitude. We need to reassess our perspective on purchasing straight razors off Ebay. Most have no idea how to use a straight razor, no idea how to hone one, and no idea how to strop one. And yet, for some stupid reason we expect shave ready razors sold on Ebay by these poor old ladies, probably selling their dead husbands steel, and getting mad at them for little nicks.

What on earth are we thinking? Very, very few people ever even consider that you might be nuts enough to be thinking about shaving with these old artifacts. These are NOT shaving implements to the general public! Get that through your heads quick. You might as well start bidding on medieval catapults and get angry when they don't work well for personal protection.

We need to start giving these people the benefit of more doubt and ask questions before you buy. Questions like "Can I shave with this razor as is?" Most would reply "What, are you nuts?"

When I received my catapult, everything was in working order and the seller even included some of his home made "oil surprise" bombs. Works like a charm. No more saturday morning wake ups and no more kids at halloween. We here in Canada believe in our right to protect ourselves too!



Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by shavethebadger

When I received my catapult, everything was in working order and the seller even included some of his home made "oil surprise" bombs. Works like a charm.

---

So that was YOU on Canada Day! :D

X

It sure beats those $10 "fireworks" packages they sell at gas stations!! Nothing improves a long weekend like a flaming fireball or flying livestock!

Quote:

---

And how is any of this eBay's problem or are you just trying to pick a fight?

---

I'm just giving you the ammo so you can pick one dude ;).

Quote:

---

What do you expect eBay to do, buy a giant warehouse, get everything from every seller, pick through it, then post it for sale themselves like a giant garage sale?

---

Nah, I don't expect them to do ANYthing that would make them legally liable for their services but a little accountability on their part WOULD be nice. Of course that won't happen either since they now have enough money to buy, er lobby, a few congress members :p

Quote:

---

If you think eBay sux0rz so bad, you're welcome to use one of the other competing platforms or take your chances with craigslist and the like.

---

Hey, thanks for pointing out some alternatives to Flea-Bay. I'll go check them out :D

In any case the problem was resolved amicably. It was ignorance on her part and she knows better for her future transactions. She got the positive rating, so did I, and the deal is still relatively ok. From now on, I'll make sure to ask relevant questions. Sorry if I opened a big can of worms. Don't forget that we're all friends here :)

The seller does offer a money back refund policy if returned in 7 days. There was an easy solution to this instead of even thinking about a less than positive feedback.

A good reason for neither party to leave feedback until the item is in the buyers hands and BOTH parties have a chance to iron things out.

Tony

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FUD

Nah, I don't expect them to do ANYthing that would make them legally liable for their services

---

Nah, just looks like a simple case of someone who simply can't be bothered to protect themselves OR attempt to amicably resolve an unsatisfactory situation and would rather stand around and throw rocks and blame someone else for their issues instead.

-- Gary F.

I think all of us who use Eboy to any extent have run into this situation and if you haven't you will sooner or later.

Remember as with anything sold on Eboy the people doing the selling are not experts just people selling some old junk. A small nick in the edge may be a big deal to us but not to them. As the experts we have to ask the right questions prior to bidding.

I had bought a C-mon that was advertised in like new condition, never used or honed and it wasn't but there was a small nick in the blade. Luckily I was able to hone it out and its a surperb shaver. I just e-mailed the seller and let her know and gave her a 2 paragraph crash course on straights. She apologized and thanked me and offered to take it back. I left her positive feedback.

Good point. As a datafeed for you'all. I NEVER ask if there are nicks in the blade. Either I see them or I don't. If the pic isn't good enough, don't buy it. I ASSUME the edge has nicks. Thats why I buy hones. If you do ask if it has nicks, don't forget to also ask how they assessed that. If its visible to the naked eye, its huge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gfoster

Nah, just looks like a simple case of someone who simply can't be bothered to protect themselves OR attempt to amicably resolve an unsatisfactory situation and would rather stand around and throw rocks and blame someone else for their issues instead.

-- Gary F.

---

Did I say you suck? No, I said ebay sUx0r, light heartedly at that (in case you don't understand web slang). Don't get your gander up dude. You're only proving the point.

I am very careful about leaving negative feedback. I did it once and got a retaliatory negative even though I instantly paid. In this case, I would discuss the matter with the seller and leave a positive or no feedback if you are satisfied with her answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Good point. As a datafeed for you'all. I NEVER ask if there are nicks in the blade. Either I see them or I don't. If the pic isn't good enough, don't buy it. I ASSUME the edge has nicks. Thats why I buy hones. If you do ask if it has nicks, don't forget to also ask how they assessed that. If its visible to the naked eye, its huge.

---

That is very sensible. I also do not bid on razors with fuzzy pix's. I will take the chance that I am passing up a real winner, as I am more likely passing up a damaged blade. If it looks like a rose and smells like a rose most times it's a rose....:D :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FUD

Did I say you suck? No, I said ebay sUx0r, light heartedly at that (in case you don't understand web slang). Don't get your gander up dude. You're only proving the point.

---

You picked this fight, not me. I'm just not rolling over. When you slander my workplace, you slander the thousands of people that I work with, am friends with, and those same people are the ones working very long hours and sometimes seven days a week to try and make the eBay experience as smooth as possible while still staying *within the laws*. We fight cheats and scam artists all day every day and sometimes it's like trying to sweep the tide back with a broom... then you come in here with guns blazing and making sweeping condemnations of all their work and efforts. I'm sorry if I don't find that "lighthearted" or "funny". In fact, I find it downright nasty and mean spirited. Whether you meant it or not doesn't matter, the end result is what matters.

If you want to debate courteously and respectfully about some of the issues and problems with eBay, start out that way instead of coming out with guns blazing. In addition, if you want to talk about problems with *eBay* confine it to things that *eBay* is actually responsible for and can improve (and yes there are plenty) instead trying to make them responsible for crappy sellers and people who spend all day trying to cheat the system.

And just for the record, just like I told you in the PM I responded to (and let me reiterate here)... I'm not taking issue with *you* in the least, and I don't have a problem with *you* as long as you don't make this any more personal than it's already gotten. I'd gladly share a homebrew with you and swap lies, but I *will* take umbrage to your words and I *will* defend myself and my friends when they are slandered and attacked.

-- Gary F.

Not to hijack the thread or anything, but for every bad seller, there's a good one. Case in point is rarori...I won a razor from this seller on ebay. The razor was fine; exactly as described, but the seller advertised as shipping via priority mail, and charged $6. When I got the razor, it was mailed 1st class, which cost $.87. I contacted the seller, and told her I thought that was a little dishonest, but that since the razor was fine, she'd still get positive feedback. She contacted me back, and apologized, and refunded $4.20 of the shipping cost. Now, it really doesn't get more honest and forthright than that in my book. Most of the time, problems can be resolved if you'll just contact the seller. Most of them are decent folks, but aren't experts in what they're selling. I think eBay is a great service, but you have to be careful about the business you do. I've stopped buying from sellers who don't accept returns, and who don't accept paypal (paypal keeps a record of my transaction, which is handy for dispute resolution...at least you have something that showed you paid, and don't have to rely on the honesty of the U.S. Postal Service.)

I LOVE eBay

I bought a pool pump for 175.00 that my guy wanted 300.00 + installation for. I bought a new taillight for my truck for 65.00 that the dealer wanted 350.00 for.
That's $400.00 real after tax dollars I saved by using eBay. I go there first for everything.

Please read the following carefully and completely before becoming emotional. Please ... there is method to my madness.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gfoster

You picked this fight, not me.

---

Actually, I was just reading over the thread and it was you who picked the fight. FUD just expressed his opinion. (Remember please, read carefully and completely BEFORE becoming emotional) :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gfoster

When you slander my workplace, you slander the thousands of people that I work with, am friends with

---

That never happened. FUD never said "everybody at eBay blows dogs" or anything like that. His comment was very general. So much so that you easily misinterpereted it. THAT is what HAS happened. Impartial observer here. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gfoster

We fight cheats and scam artists all day every day and sometimes it's like trying to sweep the tide back with a broom...

---

It seems you agree with him. It's not his job so he doesn't have to deal with it. He has the right to say he doesn't like it. Not you or your mates. That never happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gfoster

Whether you meant it or not doesn't matter, the end result is what matters.

---

NO! Intent matters. Ask the judge. Otherwise people can keep defending themselves with "He's looking at me!" Remember that shoolyard childishness? ;)

So he doesn't like eBay. So What! you're entitled to your opinion and he's entitled to his. It's just an opinion. Some people don't like Shakespeare, but I don't attack them for it. Interpreting things which aren't there is blowing things out of proportion here. I'm not taking FUD's side. I'm on the side of logical, rational thought. You can hold on to your offenses and cradle them to you if you want, but you'd just be nurturing hatred within yourself, ie. hurting yourself. Why bother, especially when no offense is intended.

You've responded as though you were pesonally attacked, by personally attacking FUD. Say you didn't if you like, but that's what you did and no he didn't start it, he expressed himself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gfoster

working very long hours and sometimes seven days a week to try and make the eBay experience as smooth as possible while still staying *within the laws*. We fight cheats and scam artists all day every day and sometimes it's like trying to sweep the tide back with a broom.

---

If you had started here we could be having an enlightened discussion at this point, not engaging in damage controll.

Let's be grown-ups. The gentlemanly qualities which we have been successful in encouraging are what we appreciate about coming here. Don't ruin it for others. Here's what I suggest:
1. Take a deep breath and calm down
2. Everybody take a deep breath and think about how you might be out of line. You too FUD. There's enough here to go around.
3. Shake hands or kiss and make up or say you're sorry or whatever the internet equivalent is and let's move on.

Nobody's getting anywhere with all these misinterpretations.

That's it. I've said my peace. The reasonable will take it to heart. The ridiculous will not.

I'm walking away now before somebody takes a swing at me for trying to break it up. I won't be back on this thread so don't offer any admonishments to me. I won't see them. Don't send me PM's about this, I won't read them. Everything you need to set yourself free of this anguish has been said. Try not to talk about me behind my back. It doesn't hurt me, but it hurts you.

With sincerity and care for all my straight shaving brothers, :)

X

X I know you won't be reading this, but I'll just respond anyway just in case someone else feels the same way.

Thanks for your opinion and for your take on the matter. I reserve the right to disagree with you, and I do. I'm fully within my right to see things in a different manner, just as you are. Doesn't make either of us any more right or wrong than the other, just means we have a different viewpoint on the matter and while I respect your viewpoint I see things a little differently.

As for the "intent matters" that is true in legal cases. However, after much pain and suffering in my life I finally learned that it most definitely does NOT matter when it comes to interpersonal relationships. If I offend my fiancee with something I say it doesn't matter one whit whether I meant to offend her or not, all that matters is that she *is* offended. I have no right at all to tell her "you have no right to be offended because I didn't mean it that way" or "you took it all wrong". If you think I'm wrong, go try that on your friends, family, etc and see how far it gets. The rules are different when it comes to interpersonal skills.

If I offend you, even if it's inadvertant (and I'd like to think I'd never personally set out to offend you) it then becomes my responsibility to make amends, not your responsibility to "get over it". If I want to be on friendly terms with you, it's my responsibility to apologize, tell you "yeah, sorry I sure didn't mean it to come across that way and I'll work on that" and then move on... at least if I expect you to treat me with any level of respect and courtesy in return that is. If I don't give a fiddler's fart about you and just want to consider myself as the center of the universe than yeah I can tell you "man, sucks to be you" but I sincerely hope that I don't *ever* do that to you or anyone else here because that's not who I want to be.

That doesn't mean I won't stand up and defend myself though. Just because I try to be courteous doesn't mean people can take a poke at me and I will just "take it" in the interest of not fighting. I'm not a pushover. Courteousy goes both ways. If you expect to receive it, you have to give it.

There's a lot of pish posh around here about "Gary you should've had said..." and that's fine. Maybe you're right and maybe you're wrong. I sure don't see how that's any different than saying "FUD, you should've said..." also. For the record, this could've been easily averted had FUD said instead "wow, I didn't realize I came across that way and I didn't mean to strike a nerve there. Sorry about that" instead of copping an attitude like "get a grip old man" (both sets of words are mine, not meaning to put words into anyone's mouth, just making an example).

This reminds me a lot of the earlier "let's slander the police department" thread and if I recall that one ended poorly as well. Being a gentleman means that you think carefully about your words and how they might make others feel *before* you say them not playing damage control afterwards. Being a gentleman entails putting other people's feelings ahead of your own sometimes.

-- Gary F.

I've enjoyed the communications I shared with the seller from whom I won this sweet baby. The seller left positive feedback for me the moment I paid (rght after the auction ended), and I thanked the seller for being decent enough to do so. Here is the seller's reply to my thank-you note:

Hi Ben,

I believe the original system is suppose to be per performance and to the facts.

My listing hopefully had large enough picture to show the item well. I do try to explain everything I can without boring the buyer and sincerely hope for the big bucks.

You paid and paid fast soon as you won the auction, therefore regardless of what may arise, your responsibility in the transaction is completed so feedback should be left I believe.

When you receive the item if it is as described and pictured (not what the buyer may have thought they were getting) and can see that I mailed it timely then I did well. If there is any problem with the item when razor arrives please let me know and I'll do my best to take care of it. My part done and all goes well my good feedback shows my responsibility in the transaction was also successfully completed.

The feedback system has become abusive and somewhat out of hand with the waiting game to see what the other person does. So I just try to do what I think is right and with integrety and hope for the best.

Thank you for the kind note that says you noticed. Seems people rarely see the good when they are looking so hard for the bad.

sweet razor Ben, and a good seller too it seems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben

The feedback system has become abusive and somewhat out of hand with the waiting game to see what the other person does. So I just try to do what I think is right and with integrety and hope for the best.

---

That is one extremely smart seller. That's the way it's *supposed* to work and if more people followed those guidelines there'd be a lot less of those unfortunate arguments over how bad ebay "suxorz" that's for sure.

-- Gary F.