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My son just found a website that gives a good reason for using the linen side of the strop before the leather. This site claims that the linen 'warms up' the blade so that the leather can more easily remove micro-nicks from the blade! :hmmm:
It's http://coolshaving.com/straight_razor.html
Tom
I mentioned this theory a while back when I was making my first (emergency required) strop:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/showthread.php?t=4496
but it was rebutted during conversation. the comment about how it works similar to the leather but on a coarser level.
I didn't see any illistrations or links to illustrations mentioned. They don't give science and they also mention removing nicks with the leather side of the strop. I'd have to disagree based on my limited knowledge as My understanding of stropping is to realign the edge. The metal is much harder than the linen or leather and unless it's pasted, the strop shouldn't be removing any metal at all.
It doesn't seem that they have anything more than an opinion and a second or third hand one at that.
I've seen a few references to blade warming, and a few to gross alignment. I do know that going back and forth (linen, then leather) creates greater draw. So I do believe its effective.
I have seen several references to blade warming as well, I was just referring to the way this particular article was written, i.e. poorly, and I would say it was about the least informative directions for stropping and honing I have yet seen, in fact if I am reading them correctly, they would take the edge off of a factory sharp razor rather than improving it.
Why the linen strop!!!!??
Because it works.
Really, as best as I know, the linen has some abrassive quality to it. Regardless, it does work to improve the edge. Some will diagree of course, so at the end of the day you will still have to decide for yourself.
Scott
I've seen several people say that they skip the linen and head right for the leather when they're stropping. This has clearly caused a bit of an anti-linen movement, because now we have people asking, "Why the linen?!" as if it has no value or something. But it definitely does.
Realize that when you're refining a razor's edge, you've got to think microscopically. Did anyone watch that National Geographic documentary on shaving?
Well, in case you didn't, they explained that to accurately measure the thickness of a razor's sharpened edge, they have to use angstroms. (1 angstrom = 1 / 10,000,000th of a millimeter!) To put that in perspective, they said that a piece of copy paper had thickness of 1,000,000 angstroms. A razor's edge can be as little as 300 angstroms.
Knowing that, of course linen is going to impact the edge. Hell, you could probably fart on a razor and waste a few hundred angstroms! All strops are different, but based on the ones I've seen, the linen is usually more coarse than the very smooth leather side. Microscopically, this this not unlike switching from the 4K side of your Norton to the 8K -- incrementally smoother to get the best edge possible.
Hmm, steel and linen, steel and leather. If its untreated its unlikely to realy change the edge however it will through friction heat up the edge and the leather will dress up the edge. Small but very important changes in the edge which translates into big shaving improvements.
Or, get a shitty shave. :roflmaoQuote:
Originally Posted by Blade Wielder
(No, I couldn't "pass" that one up)
Well I don't think I'll be farting on any razors :eek: . Consider this, however. wood workers regularly strop tools on leather but I've never heard of a wood worker stropping on linen and I've been stropping wood tools since I was 'knee high to a grass hopper' :p.
I'm sure it has to do with the thickness of the edge and those angstroms that Blade wielder mixes in with his methane ;). But none the less, it's something to think about.
I agree. The article is ianaccurate but has the right idea. Your strop will not be sharpening anything, except on on a microscopic levle that doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by thebigspendur
I think the idea of warming the edge makes sense. Stropping pushes aroung these tiny teeth. Stropping hard on linnen can dmagae them, but stropping enough to warm the edge makes them more flexible, and you better able to push them around with the leather without breaking them.
"Hell, you could probably fart on a razor and waste a few hundred angstroms!"
Heyyyy, you might be onto something there! Reminds me of a contest I was once in...ahem, well, yes I think it's because it causes the coscumboogers to scmeeliate with the squeegums. JMHO, YMMV. :eek: :nj :rolleyes:
Dr. Tom, Ph.D in Flatulology
I missed that, but I hope I'll see it some day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Wielder
My only comment is that we complicate things too much. If you want to see sharpening analysis with electron microscope shots, look at Prof Verhoeven's treatise on sharpening. He also analyzes razors and razor blades. We either have it in the document section your you can find it easily online by searching his last name and "sharpen." Your definition of ansgstrom is off by two orders of magnitude, you should substitute "meter" for millimeter. In the Verhoeven article they measure edge width in microns or millionths of a meter, and the widths, as I recall were in the range of 300 angstrom or .03 microns.
FUD
I can't imagine myself using linen for stropping my wood working tools mainly because I belive linen would hold too much Shop muck in the weave to prove it worthless. Leather is a wipe away from clean all the time.
PuFF
JoeQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
You seem to me to be contradicting yourself there :)
PuFF
I don't think so, the post I was responding to made it seem like there's something mystical here. There isn't, and it's not rocket science. The physical laws that are involved are also pretty simple. If you look there for an explanation, it stays simple. If you explain it by procedures that are not much different from what's being done now and that can't be explained, you might as well wave a magic wand.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuFFaH
I'll take the straight forward approach, and if it doesn't work the first time, continue to use it, but look elsewhere. I refuse to wave my hand and expalin that it's microscopic, so mere mortals can't understand it.
Oh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/angstrom
So should I email the people at Dictionary.com, or have you already informed them that they're wrong too?
If I substituted "millimeter" for "meter," I'd also have to substitute "one ten millionth" for "one ten-billionth."
You're absolutely right: it's not rocket science -- it's shaving science.Quote:
It's not rocket science.
You said earlier that any sharpening the strop does is on a microscopic level which "doesn't matter." You've got to be kidding.
This isn't "magic wand" stuff no one is able to explain; stropping provides the finishing touches to the blade's edge, which, in addition to the water and all of our scented shaving soaps and creams, makes the shave better. You may not be able to see the changes in the blade with the naked eye, but that doesn't change the fact that there are changes when you draw the edge across the linen and leather sides of a strop.
If, god forbid, you're ever diagnosed with cancer or something, I hope the conversation with your doctor doesn't go something along the lines of:
"Joe, I don't know quite how to tell you this, so I'll just come right out and say it: you've got cancer. Your body's healthy cells are rapidly being destroyed and unless we proceed with treatment immediately, your health will quickly deteriorate."
"But Doctor," Joe says, squinting closely at his outstretched arms, "I don't see any of this cellular damage you're talking about!"
"Of course not, Mr. Lerch -- the damage is microscopic and cannot---"
"Wait-wait-wait, stop right there -- could you please not use the m-word? If I want 'mumbo jumbo' to be annotated on your bill of service, I'll let you know, okay?"
"But..."
"Yeah, yeah -- just tell me about this 'treatment' you're proposing."
"Uhhh... well, using this machine here, we will target the mutating cells with something called radiation waves. Allow me to demontrate."
[The doctor throws a switch and the machine makes a loud sound, causing both men to cover their ears -- *KA-THRACK! THRACK! THRACK! THRACK! THRACK!* After a two or three seconds the doctor turns off the machine.]
"Doctor, I didn't see any radiation at all! Not one god damn wave! I think we're done here."
[Joe stands up and approaches the door before turning back]
"Now will your receptionist be able to validate my parking, or have you delegated that task to your enchanted unicorn?" [Joe mockingly looks around the office for any sign of the mythical creature before scoffing and walking out of sight. Meanwhile, the doctor gives an audible sigh and shakes his head.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Wielder
While I never like to get in the way of a good brawl I'd like to point out that dictionary.com isn't infallible and I've found several definitions that have been outright wrong. Eventually it gets corrected so I'm guessing they have a feedback process.
Ok gentlemen, remember, no crotch shots, no biting. shake hands and come out fighting ;).
Really? Because I also looked up "infallible" and all they wrote was, "DICTIONARY.COM!" in bold letters. ;)
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just felt like doing some creative writing.
I have a linen strop for home, and a leather only strop for travel. The linen side gives me a better shaves with wedges then all leather does, but for most blades if I use the rough side of the leather before the stropping side I get a great shave with my travel strop.
Thanks for being so clever!Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Wielder
I'm used to seeing Angstrom as 10^(-10) meters (that's the only way I could figur out to do an exponential). That's 10^(-7) mm, which is 1/10,000,000. I'm soory, my quick mental arithmetic was wrong, but all the other numbers were not.
Please don't display your ignorance. This proves that you're making it all to complicated, because you don't understand.Quote:
You're absolutely right: it's not rocket science -- it's shaving science.
You said earlier that any sharpening the strop does is on a microscopic level which "doesn't matter." You've got to be kidding.
This isn't "magic wand" stuff no one is able to explain; stropping provides the finishing touches to the blade's edge, which, in addition to the water and all of our scented shaving soaps and creams, makes the shave better. You may not be able to see the changes in the blade with the naked eye, but that doesn't change the fact that there are changes when you draw the edge across the linen and leather sides of a strop.
I've looked at all this under a microscope at up to 200x, and I know quite well what's going on. If you want to see microscope shots, go to Robert Williams' site srtraightedgerazors.com and do a search for "scratch" you'll find microphotos at 200x of a razor being honed from Ebay to stropping (about a year ago). You should also read Prof Verhoeven's treatise on knife sharpening experiments, where he clearly concludes that ordinary stropping does not increase sharpness, after honing. Then do a little research on what the primary purpose of honing is, and you can come back, and we'll talk. Before that, you're nothing but a wiseass.
Just to get you started, I'll tell you that the primary purpose for a strop is to realign the "fin", which is made up of microscopic teeth (you can't see them even at 200x). When yo shave, those teeth get spread in all directions and make the edge look wider. WHen you strop it pushes those teeth in, standing them straight up and making the edge look thinner or sharper. That may be why you think the strop has sharpened the edge.
Over time 1-2 weeks stropping will fail to restore sharpness. At that point you can touch up the razor quickly with a fine hone or pasted strop. That removes material (sharpens) and and restores the sharpness, so you can go back to just stropping until the next time you need to refresh.
On an absolute level, eveerything removes material, including your finger. But a strop removes so little (probably orders of magnitude below a .25 micron paste) that it's considered non-abrasive, and we ignore any amount of material it might remove. Sure you could use it to remove material, just like water can wear down a stone, but it would take over ten times the amount of stropping you normally do.
I do strop after honing, but not a lot, maybe 20 reps. I find that it smooths the edge to my liking. Others may not care. Robert has a photo of a razor after stropping. What you can see is that it caused the scratch lines f the 12K hone to fade slightly. That's the smoothing I'm talking about. If you want to call that sharpening, fine. Then rubbing the edge with my finger sharpens it.
Linnen stropping has always been contoversial. I use it, and I think it works, but not by itself. The explanation I've heard for the linnen is that it warms the blade. It may sound trivial, but it could have a lot of value. When you realize that stropping is pushing around the fin, warming would make it more flexible.Quote:
Originally Posted by JLStorm
Excuse me Professor Lerch, but if your blades are losing sharpness within 1-2 weeks and are requiring that much refreshing, somthin ain't right Lucy.......
I linen strop occasionally as well and the science you describe is lost on me, but the leather strop alone should be all you need for up to several months.
Have fun.
Lynn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Joe,
You always refer to how the fin "teeth" are microscopic and not visable eg. :post #21 ;Just to get you started, I'll tell you that the primary purpose for a strop is to realign the "fin", which is made up of microscopic teeth (you can't see them even at 200x).
So this sharpening the strop does on a microscopic level is not realy sharpening the microscopic fin teeth etc.
ROTFLOL
Linen must be useful to the shaver in stropping, why would they have put it together with strops for ALL those years?
Bless ya Joe, you do make me laugh :)
PuFF
Hey, no problem! :) Thank you for the additional nonsensical, typo-riddled posts, which appear to have convinced several other users -- among them, our resident shaving Guru -- that you don't know what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Lerch
Then please don't send us mixed signals, Joe. At a glance, your posts look like your challenging the board to an "Ignorance-Off" competition!Quote:
Please don't display your ignorance.
I've cited most of your stand-out comments already: bungling the definition of angstrom; contradicting yourself at every turn, notably by saying that the microscopic level changes in the blade "don't matter," only to turn right around and reference microscopic evidence (from what seems to be the only source you've investigated) as though you're shoving something in my face. You're only consistent in your inconsistency, I'm afraid.
We're not talking about knife sharpening, we're talking about razor sharpening. You seem to be big on repetition, so I'll again refer you to that National Geographic documentary on shaving, which mentions that the edge on any knife is not at all like the edge of a razor. I'll fetch the link and post it shortly for you.Quote:
You should also read Prof Verhoeven's treatise on knife sharpening experiments, where he clearly concludes that ordinary stropping does not increase sharpness, after honing.
And what I'm saying is that stropping does quite a bit to improve the edge, despite the fact that we're quantifying these improvements in angstroms. It all adds up in the end, from the initial strokes on the stone to the final ones on the linen and leather. It's a matter of incrementally improving the refinement. You're right about everything removing material, but you're wrong when you understate the strop's value. Earlier I jokingly said that you could probably fart on a razor and "waste a few hundred angstroms," beating your "even your finger removes material" comment to the punch.Quote:
On an absolute level, eveerything removes material, including your finger.
Material is always removed and the edge is constantly refined. A thumb doing it just as well as a strop, though? Come on, now. That's pretty ridiculous.
You can go ahead and believe that it doesn't make an impact...but you'll still be wrong.
This is what I know:
Linen is a great starter. I've never tried it as a finisher.
Good leather, well employed is a great finisher.
Proper stropping is essential to the function of the edge.
Ample stropping will prolong the lifespan of the edge.
Improper stropping is immediately detrimental to the the edge.
Inadequate stropping is detrimental to the lifespan of the edge.
These are the facts as I understand them.
Everything else is conjecture as far as I'm concerned. :D
X
Seems to me this thread is more about axe grinding than razor sharpening
Best regards Gary
Do you mean months without refreshing, because that's the honing I'm talking about.- I do three swipes on a Swaty about every other week and no other honing?Quote:
Originally Posted by adjustme69
Tis exactly what I meant.
Lynn
Even at that level, it does not sharpen the fin, it judy aligns it. I admit that everything has to remove some material, but thestrops abrasiveness is so little compared to everything els we use that it's not considered abrasive.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuFFaH
I have heard two reasons for using the linnen: warming the edge and cleaning it before you put it on the leather. If you don't put abrasive on it, I don't see what else it could do? Have you heard of anything?
BTW, the use of linnen is controverial. For example, Lynn doesn't use it much and other guys with 25 years of experience swear by it, every shave. The barber manual, since 1931, has not taken sides.
Tonsils mus be useful for something. We're born with them, but mine were removed when I was a child. So, linnen has been there on some strops. Do you suppose it's there for any other reason than to sell strops?
BTW, I have seen the fin teeth in electron microscope shots at 3,000x+. Furi knife, I think, has a site where they posted such shots.
This si the only part of your post that's on point and worth responding to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade Wielder
Material is always removed, including by your thumb and by water flowing over a rock, but it's orders of magnitude less than even a .05 micron strop. So compared to whatever else you do on an edge material removal by the strop is insignificant. Look at the photo, and you'll see all it does is dull the 12K scratches or lend a little smootheness, unless you do a LOT of reps(hundreds). The important function is realigning. That's not rocket science. Even the barber manual of 1931 tells you that.
Sharpening is sharpening. It's just a function of what characteristics you're trying to get. We give up edge robustness for maximum sharpness, and we go for a steeper bevel angle for the same reasons. But all sharpening theory applies. I've even seen a recent video on tool sharpening where they're sharpening chisels up to a 30K stone. If you reject this, you reject the primary body of literature and science relevant to us. For what, a National Georgraphic show? That that's your only reference speaks volumes.
Bad typing is my affliction. It's something we never learned in school, and something I've never had to learn in business. That's what you're seeing. My spelling is pretty good. I apologize, but I'm doing the best I can, and it's SLOW.
Then your participation could be very valuable in the thread "Stropping is King", where one member is being challenged foe his assertion that because of his stropping ability, he can go for a year on a plain leather strop without touching an abrasive.Quote:
Originally Posted by adjustme69
We seem to be embarking on an experiment and your input would be invaluable to keep us from going on the wrong track.
As far as I am aware, linen strop paste is very mildly abrasive;eg. talc or rottenstone is incorperated in the dressing. I make my own with rottenstone for one of my strops.
The use of the term, "strops only polish" does show that a strop removes enough material to effect the edge. A fresh honed razors edge will show greater shine and smoothness after a show on the strop. This to me proves that material has be removed, all be it a very small amount. When you are talking of such a microscopic edge this removal of material though small must have an impact on the edge let alone alignment.
PuFF
My edge looks shiny after a .5 micron strop, and I can't see a difference after leather, even at 100x. I didn't say normal stropping doesn't make a difference in the edge, otherwise I wouldn't strop after honing. I said it doesn't change the sharpness. It does smooth the edge by dulling the scratch lines left by a fine hone. Sharpness is usually measured by the thickness of the edge, and in a micrograph at 3,000x you can see it. To see the effect of stropping on thickness, you would probably need to go to 30,000x or more.Quote:
Originally Posted by PuFFaH
You need to draw the line somewhere on what you consider sharpening (significant material removal). Unfortunately, I don't know if there is such a line. I've seen 8K honing referred to as polishing (a leftover from knife sharpening), but to us it's clearly important material removal. I suggest that 5% of a .05 micron strop is not.
BTW, do you know what the abrasiveness of linnen paste is compared to diamond strop pastes (on some common scale)?
Joe
I would say that linen strop paste either talc or rottenstone is very very fine. It takes a long time for it to start to colour from stropping.
They are both used in French poilish for the final stages so thier abrasiveness must be very mild, more of a polish really.
PuFF