Green Hone ID - meta question

Hello to the group; I've registered here because there seems to be more natural hone ID'ing expertise here than on the woodwork forums I normally frequent.


I've just bought a stone I don't recognise, and I'd like the forums help in ID'ing it.

Question; what information will help you to help me?

Photographs seem an obvious start - any requirments on colour correction/what light to use/white balance?

I can describe how the stone feels when sharpening woodworking tools, but I've never honed a straight razor.

I have lapped the stone flat (on the flattest of it's two sides) - I have NOT used oil on this fresh face yet, since I understand that in razor circles, water is commonly used, and oil considered to preclude subsequent water use (or at least make it tricky).

Here's a thread (on a woodwork forum) where I attempted to ID another stone, including photographs, to give you some idea of how competent/knowledgeable/ignorant I am:

OldTools Archive -- thread with message 239013

(I also own a copy of "Natural 19th and Early 20th Century Sharpening Stones and Hones" by Brian Read and Doug Morgan from TATHS)


But I'm willing to learn...

BugBear

Hi. Pictures help in first place. I tried to open your link but failed to see any pictures. If possible before and after lapping. Size, where did you get it from, smell, colour of slurry, was it harder to lap that other hones known to you, any faults also how does it behave with quality steel. Mind you the best is to have the hone tested by somebody who knows but even that will not guarantie
As for the book I was lucky enough to handle most of the hones which were pictured in the book but have to say that to me some of them looked differently in flesh than in the book. Otherwise the book is very good for scientific research.

Pictures :rant:

Just send it to me and I'll ID it for you.

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Just send it to me and I'll ID it for you.

James.

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This is what I love about SRP, the members are always so helpful! ;p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adrspach

Hi. Pictures help in first place. I tried to open your link but failed to see any pictures.

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They're linked to in the thread.

BugBear

OK. Basic description; the stone is 7 1/2" long, 2" wide, and only 1/2" thick. It had been used as a woodworking hone with oil on both faces.

Lapping one face on 40 grit, it was one of the softest stones I have ever worked - copious dust came of with each stroke.

Working an old, hard steel, chisel on the freshly lapped surface, using water as a lubricant, the cutting action was extremely slow, and the resulting surface highly polished.

The stone is a very uniform green (which is what made me think it might NOT be Charnley forest).

The following pictures were all taken under mainly tungsten light (4 angle poise lamps), in an East facing room in the evening, with the camera having a custom white balance set against a white card before each shot. The barrel distortion from using my zoom lens at its widest setting has been removed.

The closeups were done with a normal camera lens reversed on as a closeup adapter (using 45mm and 28 mm), like this:

http://www.photomacrography.net/foru...ghlight=#56547

Basic dry shot:

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2.../green_dry.jpg

Wetted:
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2.../green_wet.jpg

Close up (dry):
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...reen_close.jpg

Very close up (dry):
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...very_close.jpg

Having noted "some" structure in the stone in the wet shot, I have (very much) exaggerated it here; the colours are (of course) no longer accurate, but I hope the shapes are helpful (sorry about the reflection of the camera)

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...en_geology.jpg

So - what is it?

BugBear

Finally some pics :beer1:

From the first 2 pics I would expect it to be a Charnley Forest.

The last 3 pictures aren't that useful although close-ups can be interesting to see. Perpective views are useful for natural hones, because some hones have a natural shape while others are cut in (a rectangular) shape. Also sawmarks can helps identify hones.

From first 2 pictures and description I am between CF and LI. As so far I did not have in my hand soft ish CF and from those pictures they are close.
Can you say apart from smelling of oil try to wet it with water after you degreased it properly. If it is any of those two above it should not be a problem as they are not porous. Can you describe the smell when it is wet after few hard strokes with pad of your thumb on it? Do you have pictures from side? Any close up of unusual faults as flakes, odd cracks etc?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Piet

The last 3 pictures aren't that useful although close-ups can be interesting to see.

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Since geologists use (actual, proper) microscopes, I thought they might be informative, although they're only "in camera" macro shots.

BugBear

You are right, they are informative :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Piet

Finally some pics :beer1:

From the first 2 pics I would expect it to be a Charnley Forest.

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I've done some reading, and it appears that Charnley Forest's are very hard, and tedious to flatten.

This stone was really soft, like roofing slate.

edit; I've got back home and checked out the stone; apart from 2 sizes of circular sawing marks around the perimeter, I can see no geological structure at all. This stone is very homogenous indeed.

BugBear

That is reason why I asked about additional signs e.g. smell.

How did you lap it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Piet

How did you lap it?

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Initially dry on a 50 Grit SiC belt; I have now relapped it wet on a 8"x11" sheet of 120 SiC paper, supported on 6mm window glass. It's now smoother, flatter, but not really substantively changed.

I did some more test sharpenings last night. On an old plane blade (1900-ish) which is almost certainly W1 steel, around Rc58, swarf was generated very slowly. What was interesting was that if I dropped my hand, the stone gripped the softer backing steel (of the laminated blade) almost viciously.

The honing action is quite "grippy" on the hard lamination of the plane blade.

BugBear

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bugbear

Initially dry on a 50 Grit SiC belt

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That is actually a very fast method which adrspach uses too and should only take a matter of minutes iirc. My method is subpar compared to that and it takes hours for me to lap a CF. I should probably cut up a belt too :D

Get a decent quality one and you will never look back. But be careful with softer hones as if you are too hard on it you can get oposite effect of dishing.

I've had reason to review this thread, and I don't think the stone is a Llyn Idwall either.

All the references say that the LI is very similar to the Charnley Forest (CF), but, if anything,
harder.

My stone is VERY soft indeed, and remains a mystery.

OK. I've been thinking. I'm not going to use this stone - it's too slow, and too soft.

I have other working stones.

But this stone does appear to be unusual, and I would be interested in identifying it.

I hate mysteries.

So - which member of this forum has the widest collection of other hones,
and the deepest knowledge?

I will DONATE this stone to that individual, and I will pay the postage. I do demand recompense though. I want a review of the stone in the context of the recipients other stones.

Who should I GIVE this stone to?

BugBear

I vote for MODINE

Im thinking its a thuringian. A pic of the side and back would help.

Hatzicho, JimmyHAD are the two I'd recommend. I know JimmyHAD has had a number of different naturals, and Hatzicho would definitely be able to identify it. Send them a PM and ask them some questions.

looks like a blue green thuri to me but side views are needed.

Seems to be some renewed interest and/or knowledge here. I'll take and post the requested
photos tonight when I get home.

BugBear

I think it does look like a slate. I recently harvested some natural slate and cut my own stones from it - they shave awesome, just like my Celebrated Water Hone. (Thanks Seb!) Have you tried a shave from this mystery stone? BTW if you plan to give the stone away I would think it makes more sense to give it to someone who could use it, not a guy who already has a billion nice hones. Maybe send it to one of those guys to test but then let it be gifted to someone who has a need!

Here's a few shots of my stone, also:

Attachment 188402Attachment 188403Attachment 188404

The upper surface has the most geology-revealing-knocks, so here are all four corners, taken
under tungsten light, colour corrected in-camera via a white card.


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...one/thin_L.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...one/thin_R.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ne/thick_L.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...ne/thick_R.jpg

BugBear

Pretty sure I see evidence of sedimentary layering there in the one corner - I'd say you definitely have a slate hone there.

What color is the slurry?

From what I see is the best bet for identifying the hone Hatzicho as I suspect it is more towards Thuri family than anything else and he specializes in them.

looks slate to me I would say blue green, some have the luck I don't. been trying to luck up on one and never have.

I should probably point out I'm in the UK. This may affect the pool of likely things
my stone could be. It also influences who I could post to. I'm not planning to air-mail it!

BugBear

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bugbear

I should probably point out I'm in the UK. This may affect the pool of likely things
my stone could be. It also influences who I could post to. I'm not planning to air-mail it!

BugBear

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Ha ha..there will not be too much left ;-)
I vote for AdRspach he lives in Uk....

If it wouldnt be relevant "HATZICHO"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eKretz

I think it does look like a slate. I recently harvested some natural slate and cut my own stones from it - they shave awesome, just like my Celebrated Water Hone. (Thanks Seb!)

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Youre Welcome Eric! Thuris have to be loved, so easy it is ;-)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bugbear

I should probably point out I'm in the UK. This may affect the pool of likely things
my stone could be. It also influences who I could post to. I'm not planning to air-mail it!

BugBear

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Neil Miller is in the UK. The guy knows more than Wikipedia itself

Contact member Neil Miller here on the forum. He's a great guy, has his own shaving related shop & as mentioned above...a very knowledgeable man.

Sounds like Neil Miller is my answer - or at least the nearest approximation to it.

I'll post (obviously...) after Christmas, and look forward to any conclusions/observations.

BugBear

The pix show a stone with a few cracks. They show a certain similarity with the pix of the Turkey stone posted here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ne-turkey.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

The pix show a stone with a few cracks. They show a certain similarity with the pix of the Turkey stone posted here: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ne-turkey.html

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These are a hard stone though...