pre hard black arkie stone

So I currently have a coticule and a hard black arkie and a few others but they are hardly used. I am not really using the hard ark because I havent quite cracked the code on it yet. I feel like there is too big a gap in grit range between the coticule and the ark and on top of that with the arkie being such a slow stone that its not worth it to use. I have read that you should get a fast stone of equal or close grit to the arkie and do a lateral jump and basically just use the arkie to polish and smmothen the scratches from the stone into a wavy scratch pattern.

My question is what stone would you suggest to go between the coticule and the arkie. I was thinking a naniwa 12k but thats just what I was thinking and am open to suggestions.

Many members on here shave right off the coticule, personally i would not add another stone to the mix. Like you said with naturals you need to crack the code. Same with other stone as well, you have to take the time to figured them out, then you will be nicely rewarded.

Is the black arkie a Surgical Black? I.e. a translucent?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Is the black arkie a Surgical Black? I.e. a translucent?

---

yes it is.

I like the shaves of the coticule. They are very smooth and sublime. Of course if I stopped at the coticule and did not explore other options then I would have nothing to spend my money on haha. No but seriously the reason why I would like to use the arkie is because other members have said that the edge it gives iisthe best theyve had

You might want to talk to Glen aka Gssixgun. IIRC, he used a Black Ark almost exclusively for a while.

Go ahead and max out your coti edge on a razor you know and can hone well. Then take that SB and do a couple hundred or more laps on mineral oil or glycerin. Then shave. I think you'll be surprised. I find my best arkie edges sharper than cotis (naturally) and very nearly as comfortable(surprise).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cosperryan

yes it is.

I like the shaves of the coticule. They are very smooth and sublime. Of course if I stopped at the coticule and did not explore other options then I would have nothing to spend my money on haha. No but seriously the reason why I would like to use the arkie is because other members have said that the edge it gives iisthe best theyve had

---

And you want to add 2 stones after 'smooth & sublime' ?
Can't really see such a big gap myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by zib

You might want to talk to Glen aka Gssixgun. IIRC, he used a Black Ark almost exclusively for a while.

---

Thanks Zib, as always a help.

Oakeshott- I will try that. Usually I take my edges as far as I can on a coti including usuing oil after water only. My SB is a 4x2 though so the lap count will be double. Not that I mind it gives me something to do while watching the tube.

Oz- If I could have only one of the stones that I currently have it would be the coticule. I do love the edges and its a great stone.... but because I have the arkie I want to learn to use it. If after I feel I have mastered it and come to realize that the edge is not all that much different from the coti then I will keep it out of the rotation. But like I said I have it therefore I want to learn to use it. Maybe it will give me better shaves once I learn to master it. Who knows? Not me but I want to know.

One quick note. I've not tried the Arkie after coti and it may be too big a jump to make a difference, but it would be interesting to hear about the results you get. I could never really max out an edge on my cuticles (my fault, not theirs) so I haven't been able to test it, but when I do this after Jnats, the improvement is obvious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

One quick note. I've not tried the Arkie after coti and it may be too big a jump to make a difference, but it would be interesting to hear about the results you get. I could never really max out an edge on my cuticles (my fault, not theirs) so I haven't been able to test it, but when I do this after Jnats, the improvement is obvious.

---

yeah thats what I think too so thats what I was wanting to know what a good stone would be to use before the arkie. I dont have to use a coticule. I am really just wanting to know what other peoples progressions are that use a SB

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cosperryan

yeah thats what I think too so thats what I was wanting to know what a good stone would be to use before the arkie. I dont have to use a coticule. I am really just wanting to know what other peoples progressions are that use a SB

---

I can only speak for mine. I try to max the edge out on my Jnat before going to the arkie finisher. If I'm not confident I've already got a superlative edge, then I don't bother with the arkie. I've not tried many other variations and inherited this approach from others so feel free to experiment and report back. Also, remember that these are still natural stones and there's variations in what each will do for you.

The age old progression would have been Soft Arkansas - Hard Arkansas - Surgical Black or Translucent Arkansas. Regular Hard Arkansas is a good stone that cuts faster than Surgical Black or Translucent, but slower than synthetic stones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

I can only speak for mine. I try to max the edge out on my Jnat before going to the arkie finisher. If I'm not confident I've already got a superlative edge, then I don't bother with the arkie. I've not tried many other variations and inherited this approach from others so feel free to experiment and report back. Also, remember that these are still natural stones and there's variations in what each will do for you.

---

I'm still trying to get my head around this thread . What does a black Ark bring to the table after a 'superlative' Jnat edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'm still trying to get my head around this thread . What does a black Ark bring to the table after a 'superlative' Jnat edge.

---

I was wondering the same thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'm still trying to get my head around this thread . What does a black Ark bring to the table after a 'superlative' Jnat edge.

---

More superlativeness.

Quote:

---

More superlativeness.

---

Well said. ;)

Most Jnats are awesome finisher's in their own right, and normally your last stop before the strop.
Going to an Ark after a Jnat seems to be backwards. What type of Jnat are you using? I'm definitely curious.

As the OP of this thread it is about what would be good to use before an arkie. I dont have a jnat and unless some one gives me one I never will. I have listed what stones I have earlier.

When I use Arkansas stones, It's Soft, Hard, Black, Translucent as posted previously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

More superlativeness.

---

IMO that means that either your Jnat is not capable of producing that really top end edge, or the stone is not being maximized, all this assuming all the prep work on lower grits was done correctly.
I personally do not see how anything can improve quality Jnat edge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainaman

IMO that means that either your Jnat is not capable of producing that really top end edge or the stone is not being maximized.

---

I wondered also if it was a razor finisher.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mainaman

IMO that means that either your Jnat is not capable of producing that really top end edge, or the stone is not being maximized, all this assuming all the prep work on lower grits was done correctly.
I personally do not see how anything can improve quality Jnat edge.

---

Stefan,

I wrote a very long response to this, but instead I'll simply ask "why?" Why do you believe that nothing can improve a quality Jnat edge? That's a huge and ultimately unprovable assertion, but it's what you believe and I'm curious why.
mark

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Stefan,

I wrote a very long response to this, but instead I'll simply ask "why?" Why do you believe that nothing can improve a quality Jnat edge? That's a huge and ultimately unprovable assertion, but it's what you believe and I'm curious why.
mark

---

Good quality Jnats will be as smooth as glass to touch once prepped correctly can get up to or over 40,000 grit due to the way the particles break down. They are absolutely awesome stones!

An arkanses can still be pepped to be almost as smooth as glass although the particle sizes are larger and they don't break down, so the grit is much lower.

It would be like going from 40,000 grit to 8,000 grit. 8,000 grit will give a nice shave but 40,000 grit should give a better shave :)

This will depend on the user and the stone. Obviously the harder the Jnats the more of a "glass" effect your going to get. Thee are many other factors that will effect a Jnats performance like slurry, toxic lines, strata and even the mine.

So, your probably better off letting us know what Jnats you have, posting some pics so we can make sure it has no toxic lines and get a rough idea on the stone itself, this may give us an idea if the problems are related to the stone or the honing technique.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Stefan,

I wrote a very long response to this, but instead I'll simply ask "why?" Why do you believe that nothing can improve a quality Jnat edge? That's a huge and ultimately unprovable assertion, but it's what you believe and I'm curious why.
mark

---

It is very simple a good Jnat finisher makes edges that do not need further improvement, no pastes no other hones after that, just plain strop. If a person is looking to improve the edge after certain hone, then the edge is not the best, that is true. In the case of Jnats, when finishers are concerned, we do not hear people going to another stone after.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brighty83

Good quality Jnats will be as smooth as glass to touch once prepped correctly can get up to or over 40,000 grit due to the way the particles break down. They are absolutely awesome stones!

An arkanses can still be pepped to be almost as smooth as glass although the particle sizes are larger and they don't break down, so the grit is much lower.

It would be like going from 40,000 grit to 8,000 grit. 8,000 grit will give a nice shave but 40,000 grit should give a better shave :)

This will depend on the user and the stone. Obviously the harder the Jnats the more of a "glass" effect your going to get. Thee are many other factors that will effect a Jnats performance like slurry, toxic lines, strata and even the mine.

So, your probably better off letting us know what Jnats you have, posting some pics so we can make sure it has no toxic lines and get a rough idea on the stone itself, this may give us an idea if the problems are related to the stone or the honing technique.

---

Brighty,
In the interest of accuracy, it needs noting that Arkie's grit rating is commonly listed as between 600-1200 but this is not how they're graded. They're graded according to specific gravity (2.5 for the trans arkies). Just wanted to make sure there was no confusion. This is easily googled.

We seem to have hijacked the OP's thread with a discussion about the quality of my rocks and technique rather than the efficacy of arkies as finishers, so I'll close out my part in the discussion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oakeshott

Brighty,
In the interest of accuracy, it needs noting that Arkie's grit rating is commonly listed as between 600-1200 but this is not how they're graded. They're graded according to specific gravity (2.5 for the trans arkies). Just wanted to make sure there was no confusion. This is easily googled.

---

I fairly sure they are much higher then 1.2k and estimated to be closer to the 4-8k ranger for the surgical black and translucent if prepared correctly. I fact, if your saying they are 2.5um that would be closer to 9k.

I've never been huge on the Arkansas stones so I'm sure one of the Arkansas gurus will add some advise to this.

Specific Gravity is a ratio of the density of a material vs. an equal volume of water. Not a measure of distance. Specific gravity is useful in comparing/grading materials quickly.

Jonathan

When it comes to Razors and Arkies.. there are several aspects to consider that are just not present with most water stones...

First the stone, Surgical Black or Translucent are then ones most gravitate towards but don't ever let color fool you, how dense and how smooth the stone can become are way more important than color.. I learned a lot about Oil stones from working water stones more than I ever knew in the past..
So with an Arkie the stone surface is very important, it has to be lapped and smoothed before it will do any good on razors, it takes time to smooth in the surface, the fastest way I have found is to use another Arkie..

Once you get the stone prepped, then you have to get the razor to a shave ready state before the Arkie is going to do anything good, for me that is at 8k, it has been my contention for a few years now that a "Finisher" is a stone that improves the edge that I can produce on a 8k,..
The other thing to consider is Sharper is easy, Smoother is not quite as easy to achieve, that takes a bit more practice..

With an Arkie you have to bring quite a few variables together before you are going to get good results, are they better then using waterstones??? I would not go that far, but they give good comfortable shaves when worked correctly... If you like to work with the edge, and you get satisfaction from the work as much as the edge then Arkies are for you...


Now to the OP's actual question ...

I have no clue :) see you're asking what to do between two unknowns I have no clue what your Coti can do and even less about what your Arkie can do, if I were talking about my Coti and my Arkie the answer would be "Why" would I put anything between two finishers it would never occur to me to combine those two stones in my progression..
Same with my Nakayama or Escher. I have never prescribed to the notion of multiple finishers, seems like chasing the Tiger's tail to me, weakens the final edge, IMHO.. The only time I have ever come close to that is using a Coti with slurry to set a bevel on a Kamisori and finishing with a Nakayama but that is a different story all together :shrug:

Best bet try it and see what happens

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gssixgun

When it comes to Razors and Arkies.. there are several aspects to consider that are just not present with most water stones...

First the stone, Surgical Black or Translucent are then ones most gravitate towards but don't ever let color fool you, how dense and how smooth the stone can become are way more important than color.. I learned a lot about Oil stones from working water stones more than I ever knew in the past..
So with an Arkie the stone surface is very important, it has to be lapped and smoothed before it will do any good on razors, it takes time to smooth in the surface, the fastest way I have found is to use another Arkie..

Once you get the stone prepped, then you have to get the razor to a shave ready state before the Arkie is going to do anything good, for me that is at 8k, it has been my contention for a few years now that a "Finisher" is a stone that improves the edge that I can produce on a 8k,..
The other thing to consider is Sharper is easy, Smoother is not quite as easy to achieve, that takes a bit more practice..

With an Arkie you have to bring quite a few variables together before you are going to get good results, are they better then using waterstones??? I would not go that far, but they give good comfortable shaves when worked correctly... If you like to work with the edge, and you get satisfaction from the work as much as the edge then Arkies are for you...


Now to the OP's actual question ...

I have no clue :) see you're asking what to do between two unknowns I have no clue what your Coti can do and even less about what your Arkie can do, if I were talking about my Coti and my Arkie the answer would be "Why" would I put anything between two finishers it would never occur to me to combine those two stones in my progression..
Same with my Nakayama or Escher. I have never prescribed to the notion of multiple finishers, seems like chasing the Tiger's tail to me, weakens the final edge, IMHO.. The only time I have ever come close to that is using a Coti with slurry to set a bevel on a Kamisori and finishing with a Nakayama but that is a different story all together :shrug:

Best bet try it and see what happens

---

Thats as good of an answer as I could hope for and works for me.