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Gents, I'm forthrightly looking to add to my rockpile for no compellingly good reason. I got HAD bad...
In any case....is there a natural stone you could recommend that would be a 'transition' between an aoto and a super-fly jnat finisher? Or between an 8k shapton and said finisher?
I note a lot of people go from 8k to 12 or 16k to a finisher. Is there a 'natural' equivalent to that synthetic 12-16k transition stone?
There is no set 12k although you could order a hone like the c12k\PHIG (People's Hone of Indeterminable Grit) and hope for the best. Natural stones don't have a grit stamped on them so the ratings are generalised and even then could be under or over. Jnats being the hardest to predict.
A lot of Jnats would be rated around the 8-16k although again, it's not like they come with a grit rating stamped on them.
A lot of the coticule are rated around the 6-8k range although you could possibly find one closer to the rating your after.
Possibly a hard Arkansas (black or translucent)
There are heaps others but I don't think there would be much point mentioning any others. When you buy a natural hone it's like a lucky (or unlucky) dip.
You could also try a course nagura with your Jnat to drop down the grit rating if it's too high.
It's common for the japanese to use a progression of nagura's to do what your after. One stone for a range of grits.
The arks are meant to be in the 12k range once properly prepared. The only other thing I can think of brighty hasn't mentioned is an esher/thuringian are around 12k for a good one.
The man's doctor told him he has too much money and not enough frustration...Quote:
Originally Posted by jgjgjg
JG - unless your experience on the stones vastly exceeds the experience of your 'join date', your AD's will do nothing for your edges. Its a state where your enthusiam (a good thing) obscures/overwhelms your objective - skill on stones, better shaving edges.
Growing the rock garden when new - lets you have exposure to lots of rocks (wonderful experience) but competency on few or none of them.
Its usually the case that nothing anyone can say will change that. You sorta have to come to that conclusion on your own.
If I could toss in a thought to the cauldron of excitement, it would be that there's no rock that will get you further down the road (especially not naturals) than honing a couple hundred more blades.
For now, enjoy the excitement. When the fog clears, you have some rocks to play with and the knowledge that its not the rock, its the rockhound.
I think the OP is going to have to buy at least 50 or 60 rocks to get an answer. Another 100 or so to confirm his suspicions. Isn't this the primary symtom of HAD ? Buy 2 stones call me in the morning :<0)
As you probably gathered there is no 100% answer. I will give you few types of hones which have the potential to be in your target group. Original YL/ LMs, CFs, LIs, Eshers, Thuris, some cotis, surgical and translucent Arks and WOAs.
However if you have not enough practice in honing you would be better with something like Naniva SS 10 000 or 12000.
Some natural hones could be "adjusted" to a certain grit by using slurry. Best example are coticules where a wide range between very low grit can be created by using thick slurry and more pressure and on the other hand very fine grades up to 14 k or even more with just using water without slurry and the weight of the razor itself.
The same you got with thuringians, but not in that wide range. Using blue Thuris with pressure honing and thick slurry will bring them down to a grit range below 10 k, using them with water only will take them as high as 14 k +.
But of course it needs a lot of experience to adjust the grit to the fineness you would like to achieve. Also the steel of a razor plays an important role honing on natural stones!
I consider my PHIG stone to be approximatelly 12K and I am very happy with it.
Not many natural stones will go over 12K level.
You can use a Thuringian, this will be the most consistent near that fineness.
Japanese stones will be higher than 12K but they vary a lot.
Coticules are 90% of the time not near 12K.
Whole lotta high grit numbers being tossed out there for natural stones with not one shred of proof.. :nono:
Next thing you know every Newb will add 2k to your numbers and be calling it gospel..
The fact of the matter still is that Grit numbers are only accurate within each synthetic series of Hones, a 8k Naniwa SS doesn't even relate to a 8k Shapton.. I fact if you want to get real technical there is a difference between a 5k Naniwa SS and a 5k Naniwa Chosera...
The only fact is that a 12k Naniwa SS is a higher grit range then a 8k Naniwa SS other then that it is all conjecture and opinion.. When you start giving grit numbers to Naturals then you have stepped over to Myth...
You're a real buzzkill!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
:nono:
:D I appreciate it!
And I know you're correct. The rockpile is currently big enough that if I were to croak over tomorrow, two of the four kids would have a complete set of hones from 'ultra-coarse' to 'ultra-fine'. The other two would each get a durn-fine finisher.
By the way....I found a small and not too expensive 'tiger striped' coticule on ebay this weekend. That'll scratch the itch.
And to bring the skill up to snuff, I'll be honing my razor every second shave. Not that it will need it. But I want to specifically practice razor honing and stropping.
You need more razors then!
Well OF COURSE I need more razors!Quote:
Originally Posted by bill3152
I think the hard part about it all as far as hones go is to have the patience to learn how to use them one at a time. Not something that I was able to do. As far as grit ratings go even for synthetics, there are so many variables as was said. And the naturals are much more so.
I'm not going to address the grit issues as it raises more controversy than the issue of tape on the spine. But I would go with the nagura suggestion. I have had great success going to my finisher after an 8K synthetic with a progression of nagura and I have only been using this set up for a couple weeks. And the nagura seem to be a lot cheaper than buying additional base stones. In my very limited experience thus far, there is no need for any bridge between 8k and the finisher other than the nagura. If you are not convinced, you might contact Maksim at JNS and ask him for a stone that suits your intentions. The acquisition of stones in this hobby seems inevitable to some degree. But if you chase a good edge, not stones, you might be able to save yourself. LOL. I have a 12K, a Welsh, and a Zulu grey. And I have used all of them to get decent edges with varying degrees of sucess/failure. But they were rarely like the ones I experienced when sending my razors to a professional to be honed. The nagura set up gets me in that neighborhood. In the end, stones appear to have limitations as to what they can deliver. Once you find one that does what you are looking for in terms of the edge, you know where you need to spend your time. Now I'm more interested in squeezing more out of each nagura or maybe adding another at some point to see what effect a different slurry can produce. I just wish I had more razors that needed to be honed so I could play around with it a bit more!
The thing I *really* want to figure out is what, exactly, a strop does. I was looking at Ron's Hock's "teh perfect edge" and was fascinated by the micrographs.
That leads naturally into what may literally be a $64,000 question: is there a natural stone that can make the strop un-neccesary? Don't ask me why this fascinates me. I have no idea.
How'dja like the Zulu Grey?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgjgjg
There are a multitude of threads on here about exactly what it does and even more really good Micro Pics..
There are conflicting studies done also on the effect on the edge, some very respected ones, what is lacking is PROOF :(
Every SR user knows it does something good to the feel of the edge, many people who hone will test edges directly off the hones to get a feel for that edge, I have never read of any of them retiring their strops :)
There are many explanations out there and I am sure you will find one that works for you, mine is the term "Burnishing" I like to think of that when I strop the razor "I am burnishing the edge" it makes me smile when I strop
If you really do have a case of HAD, PM me and I'll be willing to sell you my 11X3 Zulu at a great price. The edges from the Zulu are what everyone says they are, very velvety smooth and very comfortable. Overall, I prefer a very keen edge and I'm not sure that the Zulu delivers that to my taste. One thing I learned from teh Zulu is that it gives you nothing on the house. If you have a razor that notoriously is difficult to hone or does not usually take the best of edges, don't expect the Zulu to sort that out for you. As you might expect, I got the best edges from it on razors that were known to produce great edges to begin with. My Revisor liked it, my Friodurs liked it, and even a few no names liked it. But my Hart ( a razor that gives me fits) predictably did not. For those razors, synthetics were a better option. It does provide a very different feel that some really love. When I stopped trying to get it to do what it apparently is not good at, I found the edges to be better if not exactly what I was looking for. Same thing for my 12K SS. I kept on trying to get that last level of keenness out of it and was pushing it too far. My edges started to break down and get harsh. I've learned to be very cautious with the use of that stone now. It can deliver what it can deliver and the razor plays a big role in the outcome. The Zulu is great is you enjoy a mellow smooth feel. Its high on comfort that's for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by jgjgjg
Glen, so you hit the nail on the head on why I find the question so fascinating. Some background. Although I've always carried a knife, I really zero idea what 'sharp' was until Paul Sellers @ Homestead Heritage turned the light on for me. He would sharpen with a DMT red (dry) followed by a chromeox strop he'd made from an old belt. Now, when he stropped he looked like a terrier digging out a prairie dog hole. I mean, he went after it! The man was all about speed and 'economy' and is in every way a master of his craft.
I did that for a while, then discovered Shaptons and abandoned my strop. Then I discovered Lee Valley 1/4 micron diamond film, and that went to the station to the right of my 8k shapton. Then I discovered JNATS, right about the time I discovered straight razors (thank you 'art of manliness'). Now, the shaptons and film have a little platform over them on which sits the jnats. And they are lonely. All through this, my blades have gotten sharper. Admittedly, the transition from film to jnats bought me a little extra bit of goodness for a lot of scratch. But...it bought a little extra bit nonethless.
But now, I'm learning straights, and I'm back full circle to the strop. As you have pointed out, there is copious and contradictory evidence, supporting countless theories.
The situation raises a few questions:
1. What does is it tell us that micrographs have not definitively settled the issue?
2. What is stropping material always fibrous? Is "fibrous" a pre-condition of stropping? Or is it a coincidence that everything with 'give' is fibrous?
3. Is 'soft' the key aspect of stropping? For example, why doesn't a 1/2 micron (30k) grit stone do the same thing as 1/2 micron paste?
Many "etc's?". Maybe I should call up an old professor...
Thanks for that quip about the Hart. I'm looking @ one of those, and if they don't perform well with Natural Stone, they're not for me.
See...this is another example of what I'm talking about. All the talk about 'overhoning'. How is it that a stone 'overhones' and 'breaks down the edge' but a strop won't?
My experience with the Hart is just one. There are many other folks that have them and swear by them. Mine has proven to be rather disappointing. YMMVQuote:
Originally Posted by jgjgjg
I've found something similar. Some razors snap to attention much more quickly than others. I've also been really careful to stop and test and put the loupe on it. If I think it is close, I'll let the CrOx felt, CrOx leather and strop on it to finish up. I've found CrOx and strop definitely smooth it up(on my face and in the loupe) and pop more hair.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
Stropping definitely adds quality to an edge. You can sharpen a knife on any medium, and then see an improvement by stropping on blue jean denim. I once checked out a guys knife that wouldn't push cut paper well. He got up and walked away for a few minutes and came back. I had it push cutting well when he got back, without any stones or sandpaper being involved. He was very curious what I had done. I told him that I had stropped the edge on the pants leg of my blue jeans. He couldn't believe it.
That's an very important thing when it comes to naturals, some naturals just wont work with certain razors.Quote:
Originally Posted by hatzicho
With synthetics you cant go wrong, then I feel they are a little like Volvos, they work but they're not that fun!
This should be a sticky which every new member should have to digitally sign when they join!!:rock:Quote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
My friend has hit the nail on the head and I thank him!! :bow
People who have significant money invested in natural finishing stones probably don't want to know how effective stropping on linen or denim really is.:gaah:Quote:
Originally Posted by 1KnifeGuy4U
I would guess that the force you used to burnish/sharpen that knife would be far more than what is appropriate for a razor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzychops
Do you mean stropping on clean denim or linen strop without any stropping compound / spray / ... ?
There is nothing wrong with collecting hones over razors, we all have our passions...Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzychops
I personally have enough finishing stones to touch up all my razors 3-4 times over. I just prefer the hone path over the razor path, for me this isn't a move to get the perfect edge but more of an interest in how the different hones handle. Much the same as how someone would like to know how a 5/8 feels to shave with vs a 8/8 or a wedge vs a half hollow.
What I don't understand is why some one would be collecting them without the knowing truly what is being collected. This would be the equivalent of someone looking at a photo on ebay and buying antique razors to restore not knowing what excessive wear is, what brand is good vs bad, natural vs synthetic scales etc.
If jgjgjg decides to go down the path I have, and it looks like he has, I just want him to know what exactly he is getting in to. The last thing I want is for someone to spend every $1 they have on something that they don't understand.
@jgjgjg - since you now have a Jnat, spend some time on this, compare the edge from a synthetic and see if you truly can improve the edge, see if you can make this thing cut faster like you are after. Ask questions about the stones you have and your technique before rushing to your next hone.
After a little genuine research and practice you may even find the answer to your own questions, and you will quickly discover that grit ratings don't apply to natural stones.
I also have my suspicions that with a little testing and practice the jnat(s) you have now may end up in a different spot during your honing progression. What you feel is a polisher now may be a pre-polisher later.. Or you may even find it dulls the edge slightly after your 12k.
just plain linenQuote:
Originally Posted by Nikolay
Chris..I went and entertained 'had'. Couldn't resist. BUT! You saved me a whack o' cash because I scratched the itch on the low side instead of the high. I have some very hard tools that get 'chippy' when I reset their bevels on diamond stones. They take a lot of sharpening in the transition between the last diamond stone and the first shapton. I've tried 1k synthetics (king and shapton) and just really didn't like them. Too slow and soft.
I decided to pick up a binsui as a transition between the diamonds and the aoto. I have enough stones that are, theoretically, 'finishers' that I can play for a long time.
I need to post a 'family photo"!