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Im in a bit of a discussion about the N8 and chosera 10. I find the Norton delivers a better shaving edge at 8k than the chosera does at 10k. No science involved but that's my take. I consider the chosera 10k more of a pre finisher as opposed to the 8k as a finisher if that makes sense. . WHats your take on this? Thanks.
I haven't got a chosera but I do prefer the shave off my n8K to my sigma 10K or 13K. They just are not smooth shaves. I have always chocked it up to I just haven't been able to figure out how to get a smooth shave off of those hones. I am going to relegate them to woodworking edges as my rock pile keeps growing and I have better fish to fry or other stones to learn. I tried, I did not find my happy edge and I am moving on. Perhaps to smoother shaves. Maybe I just like an 8K edge. I continue to chase the perfect edge...
I have no experience with either stone: Norton or Chosera, but as far as I'm aware the difference in sharpness and polish between 8k and 10k is very minor. How you hone, the razor itself and the character of the stones are all arguably much larger variables which will have a far greater influence on the quality of your shave than the material difference between an 8k and 10k finish. So it could simply be the stones and the razor. In which case you might find your Chosera will be better for other razors. On the other hand it could be down to how you're honing with it, or a combination of the two. In which case practice with the Chosera may help.
Bill I agree, the 1-5-10 Chosera system is fast and accurate as all get out, but I still would rather shave off of either the Norton 8k or the Naniwa SS 8k even the Shapton 8k ...
The Chosera 1-5-10 into any finisher rocks and I am very happy with the setup but not alone :( takes to much effort to tweak in the Chosera 10k for shaving...
Depends whose 8k and whose 10k you're talking about - there are huge differences between different makers.Quote:
Originally Posted by dadsavage
Yes that is true, but I was speaking about two specific hones. I have used both and was looking for feedback from users who have also. I'm glad I didn't hear about grits and microns! Just the shave test(the only one that counts). Thanks again for your replies.
Here is an old thread from '09 with a review by English, who used to be an active member here. He first bought the Chosera 10k in '08 and raved about it. By '09 he had chilled out a bit and within a month or two of this review he put it up in the BST (buy-sell-trade, the forerunner of our current classifieds)
Both English and the Bartmeister posted about the 10k with enthusiasm to start with, but found the edges too "crisp" when it came to the shave, and both sold their 10ks. I held off getting all but the renowned bevel setter, the chosera 1k, because the higher grit choseras are so doggone expensive.
Once I had the 20k gomokyo (or however you spell it ) I drank the kool aid and added the 3k, 5k and 10k chosera. I work with these based on the Japanese grit chart whether it is right, wrong, or indifferent. Therefore, as far as I'm concerned the 5k is the equivalent of the norton 8k. I've shaved off of that and feel it is similar if not the same.
I have only shaved off of the 10k a couple of times, without going on to the 20k, and I approached that with some trepidation, based on the aforementioned opinions of English and Bart. In my case the shaves weren't bad. IOW, not too crisp. I will say that I would need to shave off the 10k many more times, with various razors, before I would give a firm opinion. One or two shaves doesn't really prove much.
In this context: Norton and Chosera.Quote:
Depends whose 8k and whose 10k you're talking about
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Originally Posted by bill3152
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Originally Posted by dadsavage
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Originally Posted by dadsavage
In this context your assumption about the two hones would be wrong, Bill was rather specific on his question and summation, the "Science" about Polish, Grit, and Sharpness, are obvious, but ultimately sooner or later you have to shave the edge...
I'm not sure what you're saying. I'm saying there's four variables: Chosera, Norton, Bill and the razor, and that in this case Bill and his razor are bigger variables than the difference between the Chosera and Norton. Ergo even if the Chosera is ostensibly 'better,' than the Norton don't be surprised if the Norton a provides superior results. It may simply be a better match for the razor and Bill's technique may be allowing him to get more out of it, but with a different razor or technique the Chosera may be able to deliver more than he is currently getting from it. Whether or not it can deliver more than the Norton, or enough to justify the time invested in it I have no idea. However I'm assuming that as a finer hone if he manages to get it to deliver everything it can on a suitable razor than he should get a slightly improved edge and polish vs. the Norton. That improved edge and polish might allow for a better shave, I don't know.
Is that wrong?
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Originally Posted by dadsavage
No
But it does nothing to answer Bill's question, the part you are missing is that we (including Bill) are all more then well aware of the science and your summation..
What he is asking is why, besides what we all know to be true by the numbers (your writing) does the Norton 8k seem to give him a better feeling shave..
The answer is that:
It is a quite common finding when the Chosera 10k is in question, it is quite normal to hear that it is an awesome hone but the resulting shave is at best just "OK" and sometimes a bit "Harsh" this is why it is most often used as a Pre-Finisher or Polisher...
ie: It is just not known as an exceptional feeling hone for shaving, it is however exceptional as a Pre-finisher
Basically you are just going to have to try it to see what we are talking about, after a few 1000 razors on it and multiple attempts on a multitude of razors I have given up on the tweaking needed to get a shave that I can beat with 20 simple laps on most all of my finishers or a Norton 8k...
But
It is incredibly accurate, and excellent to set the razor up for a final finish
Apologies to Bill then, wasn't my intention to seem presumptuous or patronizing. As I said I've never used the Chosera stones, and I'm not sure I want to splash out on them at any point save perhaps for a 1k though that won't be for some time. Likely years. Has anyone tried putting a Chosera 10k edge under a microscope and comparing it with the Norton edge?
I know the shave is the best test, but it could provide some insight into what the hone is doing that makes the shave harsh.
That was my point, yes, that it renders the generalisation that "the difference in sharpness and polish between 8k and 10k is very minor" meaningless - unless you specifically meant that the difference in sharpness and polish between the Norton 8k and the Chosera 10k is very minor?Quote:
Originally Posted by dadsavage
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Originally Posted by dadsavage
Yes... Microscopes do tell a good story, and are an invaluable tool in these endeavors, but sadly they are useless in telling us anything about "Feel" Other then the most glaringly obvious issues along an edge, magnification is basically good for looking at the sides of the bevel to make sure the scratch pattern is even and reaching the edge fully...
No but the reason I specifically asked for people who have used both. We could get a catalogue and research a hone based on the size of the particles(grit and microns. old rating and new, my head hurts already) OR we could exchange our experience with it(no science) and see where we are. In this case we are definitely on the same page. I try to never comment on something I have not used or only used a few times. Not busting your chops, but reading about it and using it extensively are 2 different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by dadsavage
Yep, that's definitely my exerience so far, though I haven't had my USB scope long.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
It makes bevel-setting a whole lot easier. There's no guessing, no need to squint to check if the marker test has worked, etc - I can just see it, plain as day. Burr or wire edge? unmissable.
It's also good for checking on the progress of a known progression - I can quite easily see, for example, when each stone has removed the scratches from the one before.
And I also find it good for checking whether I've reached a good finishing stage on my Naniwa 12k - I know what a good polish looks like, and if I repeat that look then I know it's going to shave well. (And it's no good for the same thing on my C12k - a finished edge looks pretty much the same as an unfinished one.)
But it is indeed useless for comparing different stones for the quality of their finish. For example, my Naniwa 12k edges have a nice mirror finish, but a C12k edge I did last week looked like it had been sandblasted - and they both gave nice smooth shaves.
I have also observed that, the finer the stones, the "crispier" their edges. It's not a rule without exceptions, but it is frequent. And the same stones, if used with slurry give a mellower and coarser edge. But those crisp edges, after 10 passes on CeOx or CrOx can easily become someone's favorite choice.
For the microscope, I have used one in the past, but I don't find it useful at all now. The 1000 grit stones, no matter the manufacturer, do leave a coarser edge-less mirror like, than the finer ones. And it is visible to the naked eye. Works pretty much like a marker pen. If the whole edge looks like it has the same type of polish, and passes the TPT, you ve got your bevel set. After that, hone with your progression as you normally would. If the edge looks like it can shave, try it, and choose what is comfortable for you.
For the grit/micron of the companies;
Norton 8k is at 3 micron. 1 micron is around 24k grit.
Naniwa chosera 10k is about 1 micron.
Naniwa superstone should be around 12k grit for 1 micron,
Suehiro, 10k grit for 1 micron,
Shapton, 15k grit for 1 micron,
Sigma select 10k for 1 micron.
Not sure for the kings.
And the list goes on. I'm 90% sure for the numbers, but if I'm wrong somewhere, please correct me.
I used to scratch my head when Lynn used to say certain stones were made for razors. Now I think I understand what he meant. The norton 8 and chosera 10 have a completely different feel. The n 8 feels softer and IMO is softer as it dishes at a faster rate than the chosera 10. This may come into play with smoothness. Im not speaking for Lynn, but this makes sense to me. I may be wrong about the reason though. I find the grit ratings to be purposely confusing(LOL) I have a suehiro 20k that is rated at .5 microns, the shapton 30k is rated at .49 microns. Thats a big difference. I know the old rating vs new rating. But what is it, 20 or 30? Doesnt matter to me as that is only one part of the whole picture. I find naturals now less confusing as they dont rate the stones by grit!
One statement I have posted multiple times about the Grit Ratings, vs Micron rating vs Comparisons between these
There is only one "Truth" about the ratings that are stamped on hones,,, that rating only correlates to another hone in the exact same series.. They don't even correlate between different series of hones by the same maker
Translation
A 10k Naniwa SS is a finer hone then a Naniwa SS 5k But there is not a direct comparison between a Naniwa SS 10k and a Naniwa Chosera 10k these are two different hones .. And there is certainly no direct comparison between a hone from a different maker..
Grit/Micron size is only a small part of the equation of how a hone works..