Nakayama Maruka jnat. Genuine or Fake?

I have spotted one seller on e-bay who offers a lot of cheap jnats claimed as Maruka.

Here he is: eBay Feedback Profile for japanathome

Honestly speaking I am doubted that all these stones are not fake.

For example here it is Nakayama Maruka bought in Japan:
Attachment 148894
hi-res image: http://imageshack.com/a/img196/4372/ymh0.jpg


Attachment 148895
hi-res image: http://imageshack.com/a/img844/8116/r7ok.jpg


Attachment 148897


One more example of Nakayama Maruka from Maxim: http://japanesenaturalstones.blogspo...houbudani.html


And these are the stones bought from that seller:
Attachment 148896
hi-res image: http://imageshack.com/a/img30/1544/9w94.jpg


Any ideas?

Impossible to prove one way or the other though. I assume any stone that is too good to be true as fake. The bottom line is there are many stones that can put a great edge on a razor and can be had for under $300. Regardless of mine or origin but from a reputable source. Where they come from will dictate that the stones at least have the characteristics of what they are being called and many times that is good enough. Unless you are looking for a museum piece or some very rare stone that cant be had easily. Stamps can be faked easily. The reputation of the seller IMO is more important than what the stamp says. And there are sellers who will let you try the stones out, if you dont like it, send it back and try another one.

In Japan real Nakayama with the stamps cost a ton of money, on ebay 20-50 usd. You know the saying: " If it is too good to be true then it probably...is"
Original Maruka stamps are blue or purple-broun, and applied on the narrow side of the hone.

This guy fake stamps stones, many in Japan do.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

In Japan real Nakayama with the stamps cost a ton of money, on ebay 20-50 usd. You know the saying: " If it is too good to be true then it probably...is"
Original Maruka stamps are blue or purple-broun, and applied on the narrow side of the hone.

This guy fake stamps stones, many in Japan do.

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Sad, but true.
I hope not that many in Japan do. But some a few.
Even Nakaoka Tomonory AKA 330mate AKA fujibato have never dared to fake Maruka stamp.
He just mimic it with his own stamp resembling to Maruka, but not the same.

Anybody can mimic or fake the stamp, but nobody can provide the same quality and particular constellation of properties of stones mined from Nakayama.
Color patterns, texture of surface and hada of genuine Nakayama stones are impossible to fake in every detail.

Did you try the stones you bought from him? I see he have a accurate description of stones, so it will be easy to check if they are what he claim.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Stamps can be faked easily. The reputation of the seller IMO is more important than what the stamp says. And there are sellers who will let you try the stones out, if you dont like it, send it back and try another one.

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That is it. Thank you for words of wisdom.

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Originally Posted by Nikolay

Sad, but true.
I hope not that many in Japan do. But some a few.
Even Nakaoka Tomonory AKA 330mate AKA fujibato have never dared to fake Maruka stamp.
He just mimic it with his own stamp resembling to Maruka, but not the same.

Anybody can mimic or fake the stamp, but nobody can provide the same quality and particular constellation of properties of stones mined from Nakayama.
Color patterns, texture of surface and hada of genuine Nakayama stones are impossible to fake in every detail.

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Nakayama have that very specific feel to them while honing, that only may be Wakasa come close to. That is why always is good to try the stone before buying it.

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Originally Posted by livio

Did you try the stones you bought from him? I see he have a accurate description of stones, so it will be easy to check if they are what he claim.

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No I have never neither bought nor tried these fake Maruka stones.
The image with the bunch of stones is from another person.

The images with stamp and surface of Maruka Kiita above are my.

The description is accurate indeed, but have you ever seen Nakayama Maruka with such an ugly suji ( streaks and cracks ) like these one http://www.ebay.com/itm/131065746454 ?

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Originally Posted by mainaman

Nakayama have that very specific feel to them while honing, that only may be Wakasa come close to. That is why always is good to try the stone before buying it.

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I think some good Ozaki stones are close to that too.

Admittedly, I purchased 2 of these stones (no decent pics at the moment). These are my first Jnats. I did me research and could see some of the stones have seams and pits. I had to try at that price.

My purchases:
Attachment 149492
Maruka Orange Suita Japanese Natural From Kyoto City
80 mm x 142 mm x 20 mm
weight is 434g
medium hard stone

Attachment 149493
Okudo White Suita Japanese Natural From Kyoto City
61 mm x 147 mm x 25 mm
weight is 407g
super hard stone

I could never afford some of the finer Jnat stones. So I looked carefully at the pics and chose the two that I saw with the least flaws. The flaws that I could spot were far enough apart that I felt I could work with these.

I was satisfied with my purchase. The Maruka had more flaws, but being the softer stone I felt I could use it for slurry if all else failed.

After lapping the flaws on the Maruka improved greatly. I have only honed two razors with these stones, but am very satisfied so far. The Okudo White is actually a great finisher.

I feel these are genuine, but with flaws that make them less desirable. Hence the lower asking price.

It'll take me a few months to get a feel for them, but I am already satisfied with my inexpensive minor upgrade.

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Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

The Maruka had more flaws, but being the softer stone I felt I could use it for slurry if all else failed.

After lapping the flaws on the Maruka improved greatly. I have only honed two razors with these stones, but am very satisfied so far. The Okudo White is actually a great finisher.
I feel these are genuine, but with flaws that make them less desirable.

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Yes, the first stone is genuine jnat, but not Nakayama Maruka. Because it is not from Nakayama mine indeed.
Check the topic http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ps-2013-a.html for details on Nakayama.

The second one is genuine Suita jnat, but I am in doubt that it is Okudo.

So it's better to call first one as pseudo-Maruka or fake-Maruka.
And the second one just as Suita jnat.

If someone buys a stone from that person and it's a good stone for $45, they should expect the stamp to be fake, but be very happy to have a good stone for $45.

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Originally Posted by Nikolay

Yes, the first stone is genuine jnat, but not Nakayama Maruka. Because it is not from Nakayama mine indeed.
Check the topic http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ps-2013-a.html for details on Nakayama.

The second one is genuine Suita jnat, but I am in doubt that it is Okudo.

So it's better to call first one as pseudo-Maruka or fake-Maruka.
And the second one just as Suita jnat.

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Thanks, I just reported the stones to ebay as fake. I checked the stamps in Alex's post http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ps-2013-a.html.

I can see the difference now. I did not when I originally looked the stamp up.

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Originally Posted by DaveW

If someone buys a stone from that person and it's a good stone for $45, they should expect the stamp to be fake, but be very happy to have a good stone for $45.

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Sorry, DaveW I can't agree with you.

If the stones were represented to me as fake but good stones, I would have most likely not bought them. I would probably have waited for a single TRUE stone and purchased it alone.

I shop carefully for vintage razors, and occasionally find a great purchase on a choice razor. I recently bought a Wusthof for $10, and previously bought a Wade and Butcher Barbers Only for about $50 dollars.

I was very pleased with those purchases. The razors were not in NOS shape and needed to be restored, but I knew that when I made my bids. I certainly did not expect those razors to be fake.

If I later found that these were counterfeit Gold Dollars, I certainly would not be pleased that they honed up well and gave great shaves.

This was a learning experience then - your entry fee into the hobby, I personally would never expect to find any good stone (totally without stamp or any indication of where it came from at all) for $45 and assume that it came from mt. atago or anywhere close to it.

You can return the stone and likely get your money back (if you did buy stones), but if I got one with a fake stone for $45 and it turned out to be a legitimate razor finisher, and I suspected that it came from anywhere on mt. atago, it would be a super deal.

Getting a maruka stamped razor finisher for $45 is akin to getting a recent les paul standard for $200. A person new to guitars may think they were finding a hidden vein of deals, but anyone with any experience would know the origin wasn't tennessee. Buyer beware, except if I got a $200 les paul copy and it was capable, I would be ecstatic with that, too.

EDIT: I just reviewed and see you bought two and feel you're happy with their honing. It's possible the suita not be okudo, and it may not be, but if they are good hones aside from not being genuine, this is one of those situations where the dealer is crooked (in my opinion) but you still got your money's worth. I'm not defending the practice. You will probably never know if it's actually okudo, there are multiple sellers (some of them reputable) selling grayish okudo suitas with more okudo-ish coloration on the skin. The classic high dollar okudo suitas have a more creamy color, and less grayish. But if tomonori, Takeshi kuroda and Aoki are all selling gray okudo suitas, you have a chance that they are just selling off the stones that miners cast aside at one point, or veins they left alone due to coloration.

Anyway, in the world of necessity, it would literally take one decent stone to provide a lifetime of shaves on a properly prepared razor. To be able to do that for a couple of $20s is cheaper in comparison than the cost of a decent hone in the early 1900s and late 1800s when they were competitively sold ($2-$3 back then - the cost of many of those hones - would've been a day's wage).

Alright Dave, I see you're right. When it comes to Jnats I'm just a babe in the woods.

I got so angry for two reasons.

#1 I HATE being lied too.

#2 My razors were on those stones. The horrors that could have happened flashed through my mind. I thought I was going to pass out.

(Ok, it wasn't quite that dramatic, but I'm sure you know what I'm referring to)

Yeah, we've all been through it. Several years from now, you'll be watching someone else having the same issue. As long as there's money to be made with fakes, there will be fakes. what's surprising to me is that the person who is doing the listing must be crooked enough that they are doing nothing at all to hide it.

Other stones that I have seen that I believe to be fakes are often very similar in characteristics to the hatanaka stamped stones (very uniform in color, fine and well finished with few flaws), and those you stand to lose a lot of money if you miss something for a stamp (because a seller will have tried to sell it as a real maruka for something more like 2/3rds the price of a true maruka).

I remember when I first got into woodworking, everything I bought, there was a guy who was a tool dealer who would say "you bought junk, they saw you coming from a mile away". I don't want to come across like that, on the contrary I think it's something where you get lied to and you don't get what you expected but what you get may still be good. If you feel the surface of a faked stone and it feels fairly smooth with your fingers, you may need to use your usual finish, but that's about it.

You also have free license now to lap those and do as you see fit with them, really learn them, because you know you're not wasting away a fine jewel.

Here's my example of where I was had. when I started woodworking, there was a retailer (lee valley) that was selling what IIRC were marginal imanishi stones. they were $45-$50 per. I got one, and I thought it was better than it was. It was actually a good pre finisher. They were marketed as being closeout of stones that would otherwise cost a lot of money.

The reality of it was, I bought one and I convinced a friend to buy two. Well, mine was a bit soft and not that fine (but not small) and the two he got were very small and very slow cutting. He wasn't happy with it, so out of guilt, I took the two he got (and paid him for them) and gave them away with other stones that I sold along the way. Of course, I was selling those other stones at a loss, too, so it stung.

I sold the third that I had bought (that was a reasonably nice pre-finisher) along with a chinese hone in the classifieds here, and i think I may have asked for about $30 each for the pair.

None of the stones that I had bought in that group were suitable for razors. None were really suitable for tools as finishers, either. Along the way, I also got several other more expensive stones that turned out not to be that great (as in $150-$400) and while they were OK, I had to take a huge loss unloading them, or I would've been no better than the person who sold them to me.

Thus the comment about you being had by a crooked seller, but still getting your money's worth.

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Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

Admittedly, I purchased 2 of these stones (no decent pics at the moment). These are my first Jnats. I did me research and could see some of the stones have seams and pits. I had to try at that price.

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It is not a flaw for Suita to have pits. Su actually is a reference to 'holes'.

Sunashi suita = Suita with no holes or only micro holes so if you buy Sunashi suita with pits it is an inaccurate description otherwise expect 'holes' in your Suita.

Cheap Suita are not really for razors.

Suita with holes can cause trouble I hear as your botan can come out of the hole when you are using your koma! LOL. My ozaki suita has no holes but lots of non toxic lines. The argument whether a stone is real or not can never be resolved unless you dug the stone out yourself. Its he said, she said. buy from a reputable dealer that will accept a return or exchange. Then you wont get burned even if the stamps are fake. And sometimes the stamps are real but the stone is a fake.

The best bet is become educated about these stones before you buy them or buy from a vendor with a long reputation beyond reproach.

otherwise you're like the amateur gold prospector who finds "fools gold" and thinks he has struck it rich.

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Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

If the stones were represented to me as fake but good stones, I would have most likely not bought them. I would probably have waited for a single TRUE stone and purchased it alone.

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Do you mind me asking why this is? This is still a Jnat although the origin unknown.. unless you buy from a reputable vendor, If you had have waited and paid 10-20x the price, on eBay there is still no guarantee the stone would have been better without testing it first.. This would mean that you have a stone much more expensive that may be exactly the same or worse for a lot more money...

Those are nice looking stones, i know they weren't what you were expecting although if they hone nicely and improve your edge it would be a shame to let them go for the price you paid.. If they don't hone well send them back..

As mentioned by Oz, the holes can be expected for Suita stones... although they aren't always a problem unless they are toxic. The only way to find this out would be to lap the hell out of the stone, see if you can get it past the Su as much as you can and see if the stones breaks away where the holes were.

Have you managed to get a good edge off them? Is the Su toxic? Does any off the stone break away when honing? And have you tried lapping the stone past the Su?

BTW: 'Some' of my best jnats have cost me under $100. Cheap stones can be very inconsistent although you can get a bargain every now and then. Trouble is you really need something to compare the stone too or you have no way of knowing what is good or not. This is where the venders come in handy as they do the testing for you, for a first stone its really the only way to go.

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Originally Posted by Brighty83

Do you mind me asking why this is? This is still a Jnat although the origin unknown.. unless you buy from a reputable vendor, If you had have waited and paid 10-20x the price, on eBay there is still no guarantee the stone would have been better without testing it first.. This would mean that you have a stone much more expensive that may be exactly the same or worse for a lot more money...

Those are nice looking stones, i know they weren't what you were expecting although if they hone nicely and improve your edge it would be a shame to let them go for the price you paid.. If they don't hone well send them back..

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I'll tell you why Chris, the big issue was the lie. As the initial shock fades I know I would feel at a loss to send my first Jnats back. I'll give it one more day before I decide.


I sure didn't mean to hijack this thread, but thanks to all of you for the input.

I appreciate the support.

... wait is this support or are you aiding and abetting a new AD for me?

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Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

I'll tell you why Chris, the big issue was the lie. As the initial shock fades I know I would feel at a loss to send my first Jnats back. I'll give it one more day before I decide.

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At least this gives you the ability to test, and if they aren't right you have a valid reason to return :)

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Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

I sure didn't mean to hijack this thread, but thanks to all of you for the input.

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If you dont ask you will never know :)

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Originally Posted by KindestCutOfAll

... wait is this support or are you aiding and abetting a new AD for me?

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Only if your ready for it hehe

but really, I wouldn't be pushing you into buying more, i'm more suggesting that it may not be as bad as it seems... At worst you now have a little experience with jnats and now you know what not to do, at best you have a jnat that is razor ready :)

One final note. I ended up keeping the stones.

Oh well, I guess this just means I need to keep adding hones.

The kiita looks beautiful and that ink looks well absorbed in the stone over years, looks like an authentic Nakayama Maruka.
The ones from eBay the are definitely fakes 100%. The cut is ugly, the stones are ugly and I can also recognize the font of the characters from other fakes Maruka seen around.
RULE: The Maruka stamp was applied ONLY on THE FINEST stones from the Nakayama mine. They always have very strong cutting power and are hard or very hard stones.
Usually, Maruka stones are very beautiful stones, nicely cut and shaped, without cracks or impurities.
The authentic Maruka are getting more and more difficult to find. There are very sought after here in Japan and most expensive, so who ownes one doesn't really want to sell it.
If its 200$ its not an Original! In Japan a Maruka can cost you from 1000 to 3000$ from small to normal size and can go up to 5000$ if they're thick, but this only IF you are lucky enough to find them.
Being so expensive and with a big demand also brings A LOT of fakes on the market, reaching even to renowned stores.
My advice for someone who would want to spend hundreds of dollars for a Jnat is to ask the seller for a chance to see the stone in action before buying.

The ebay stones are a joke, i think it is that guy from the past, back with a new account..

In stones, the main thing is not the seal. And the way they work. And there are no fake stones. They are all natural. There are incorrect names. There are also fake seals. But with modern technology, even experts are at a dead end. And sometimes, the definition of a fake is only due to the fact that the quality of the fake is higher than the original. I sold stones in Ukraine. But I traded on eBay, because in Ukraine I could not receive paper payments. Over the past 4 years, many stones have passed through me. The average price range is around 250 -350 dollars. And all these stones were tested by me. And I had buyers who were collectors. Who came ( anyone could come to me personally) and tested them independently. And they weren't much different from the ones in their collection. Thanks to my buyers and collectors. I had the opportunity not only to see , but also to hold and test the stones from their collections. And these were very expensive stones.. I still try to do this. But since I choose stones that will satisfy me, sometimes I can't find anything for several months.

Sorry for the English. I hope Google translated it well.

As far as the english it was better than most native speakers.

That is a good point though, a Japanese natural stone could be called fake as it does not have the provenance it claims to, but could still be an excellent stone even superior to that which it is imitating.

I think that if someone intentionally falsifies stamps, they may also falsify condition, flaws, and other relevant information. Intentionally falsifying a description is a warning to buyers.

Until recently, here in Japan, some stores let you test the stone first and later apply the stamps in front of you, there was no hiding. Most Jnat users here are knife sharpeners and carpenters and the belief is that カ(Ka) that means "Power" stands for the strong cutting power of the stone. But the original Maruka stones have more than just strong cutting power, they also have a very high level of fineness. Those who hone razors and shave can feel this fineness much better, that is something impossible to be faked. A stone of that level of fineness, would be precious even without any stamps.

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Originally Posted by Nikolay

I hope not that many in Japan do. But some a few.
.

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Japanese are just people, no better or worse than us.
So Yamashita once told me that the term 'tamahagane' is slapped on a lot of things in Japan.
Actual tamahagane is severely restricted. The name is not.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

Japanese are just people, no better or worse than us.
So Yamashita once told me that the term 'tamahagane' is slapped on a lot of things in Japan.
Actual tamahagane is severely restricted. The name is not.

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Yes, you can find tamahagane sake or chocolate for example.
But when it comes to steel, the production and distribution is heavily regulated by the Japanese government and only the steel produced with the traditional method can use the name Tamahagane and be stamped with 玉鋼 in kanji

Like all mines and quarries the Nakayama mine produced stones of different qualities. So Yamashita used to have Nakayamas on his site for polishing razors and Nakayamas for sharpening chisels. So a Nakayama that is unsuitable to polish a razor isn't necessarily a bad Nakayama of a fake one.

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Originally Posted by Kees

Like all mines and quarries the Nakayama mine produced stones of different qualities. So Yamashita used to have Nakayamas on his site for polishing razors and Nakayamas for sharpening chisels. So a Nakayama that is unsuitable to polish a razor isn't necessarily a bad Nakayama of a fake one.

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Very true!