Escher skills

Hi, i need some advise please.
I have 3 Hart Steel razors. One 7/8 Mirrored square point and two 6/8 "Not a Replica" blades.
Personally i think Hart Steel make the best blades.
I also have the Shapton hones 1k/4k/8k/16k and 30k. My honing skills are coming along and with my stropping i'm getting very nice edges. Also i use that optical powder to polish it up at the end.
Like a fool i dropped one of my "Not a Replica" blades and managed to chip it. This happened before i had the shapton stones, so i sent it off to america for Hart Steel to repair it, which they did.
I know they finish on Escher stones.
The edge on my returned blade is on another level and im gobsmacked by it.
Can i achieve such an edge with my 30k shapton or would i need a natural stone for that kinda finish?
Or is it just down to skill or both?
Thanks for your imput.
Happy New Year Also :)

Different stones finish differently, and the edges feel differently.
30k Shaptin edge will not feel the same as Escher or Coticule or Jnat edge.
You will achieve the greater sharpness with the 30k Shapton, but probably the edge will not feel like Escher edge.

I don't have the 30k shapton but have the 1,2,4,8,16 shapton glass! I take the razor through the SG progression then go to the Escher/Turingian. I don't get more sharpness from the turi, but gain the smoothness from it. What I'm looking is to change the scratch pattern along the edge, to get that turi buttery feel, with light strokes.

You don't need a big stone for that. One of my favorite edges is from a 1 1/8" wide X 5" long light grey turi, that I use after the 16k SG.

Double O

"Buttery Feel" thats what im missing. That effortless cutting through hairs with no noise.
What kinda stone do i need to buy?
I did look into the Nakayama stones but they are a bit too expensive and i cant even understand the web site really.

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Originally Posted by JOB15

"Buttery Feel" thats what im missing. That effortless cutting through hairs with no noise.
What kinda stone do i need to buy?
I did look into the Nakayama stones but they are a bit too expensive and i cant even understand the web site really.

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The noise you refer to is not dictated by how the blade was honed,is all about the grind.

Would this do the job? The job being that ultra smooth finish.
BLUE GREEN ESCHER WATER HONE STONE RARE | eBay

Seriously ???

$250 for an unknown chunk of rock :shrug:

If it doesn't have an Escher Label it isn't an Escher, it might be a Thüringen but it isn't an Escher unless it can be proved


Just my Opinion:
If you hand me a Hart razor and my choice of hones, yes I do own a B/G Escher, I would choose the Shapton GS system or the Naniwa SS System every time over my Escher ...

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Seriously ???

$250 for an unknown chunk of rock :shrug:

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:) thanks

The Escher grits seem to be 10k-12k.
How could i go from a shapton 30k to finish on a Escher 10k.
dosnt make sense to me.
excuse my ignorance plz

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Originally Posted by JOB15

The Escher grits seem to be 10k-12k.
How could i go from a shapton 30k to finish on a Escher 10k.
dosnt make sense to me.
excuse my ignorance plz

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You don't. most people would shift to the Escher at either the 8k or even the 16k level, it depends on your abilities and face,, If you can get a close comfortable shave off the 8k Shapton then you could shift there, if not then you might need to go to the 16k and shift or even perhaps practice at the 8k level more...

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Originally Posted by JOB15

The Escher grits seem to be 10k-12k.
How could i go from a shapton 30k to finish on a Escher 10k.
dosnt make sense to me.
excuse my ignorance plz

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I'm no expert, but my impression is that rating grit on a natural seems to be an imperfect science from what I've read on these forums over the years. The characteristic smoothness found on razors honed with eschers and some coticules is more a result of the shape of the abrasive than the grit level AFAIK. I've had and sold the 30k, have the Suehiro Gomyko 20k and found myself going back to my yellow/green escher because I just like the feeling of that edge better. OTOH, as in all facets of this hobby YMMV.

Your Harts can handle a 30K, but your shave will not be from a "smooth" blade, but from a very sharp/crisp feeling blade. My routine is the same as DoubleO's: Shapton GS's to 16K then to Escher or Zulu Grey. Yes, it's going backwards a little in "grit" so to say, but at those levels it's all about custom tuning a blade to what you like. I keep my 16K in the bathroom for my "barber stone" & touch up on the fly. Once you learn your stones, you will know what each razor needs. I recommend leaving all powders & pastes alone until you obtain the edges you need from the stones.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

You don't. most people would shift to the Escher at either the 8k or even the 16k level, it depends on your abilities and face,, If you can get a close comfortable shave off the 8k Shapton then you could shift there, if not then you might need to go to the 16k and shift or even perhaps practice at the 8k level more...

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Ahh I see now, ill stand by my shappy 30k for the time being , seen as it cost me so much.
Plus im still learning, a few more years and ill be a quality honer...
I think natural stones might be in my future, but not immediate future..
many thanks , everyone.

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Your Harts can handle a 30K, but your shave will not be from a "smooth" blade, but from a very sharp/crisp feeling blade. My routine is the same as DoubleO's: Shapton GS's to 16K then to Escher or Zulu Grey. Yes, it's going backwards a little in "grit" so to say, but at those levels it's all about custom tuning a blade to what you like. I keep my 16K in the bathroom for my "barber stone" & touch up on the fly. Once you learn your stones, you will know what each razor needs. I recommend leaving all powders & pastes alone until you obtain the edges you need from the stones.

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Wise words, i should leave off the optical powder.. Thanks.

Hello Job15,

I believe everyone could use a good natural finishing stone. The edges that comes off natural stone are going to differ from person to person because skill comes into play. I would go as far to says skills are just as important as the stone itself. You have to find what works for you. Many people are going to have advise, but it comes down to practice and the right touch on each stone. You'll only figure this out by trail and error. So, get a quality natural stone, 10K or higher, and have fun with the it.

Tall Guy

My Escher is the end game for me. I find the edges to be silky smooth and proper sharp. I have the Shapton 30K and it seems no matter how I use it I always wind up with a slightly harsh edge and no increase in perceived sharpness over the escher.

Does this equal the Escher's?

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Does this equal the Escher's?

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Nothing there but an empty shopping cart.

Thuringian stone
10" x 3" x 3/4" WITH slurry stone and wooden box
$199.00

Original Escher Stone - Sharpening Stone from Germany

Escher is a brand, not the name of stone. Eschers are Thuringians, but Thuringians are not necessarily Eschers. To be an Escher the Thuringian would have been graded by Escher and accepted only if it met their quality standards. That's why labeled Eschers command the high prices.....you know what you're getting.

With Thuringian you just, supposedly, know that the stone came from the same area and may or may not be suitable as a hone.

They may have sourced rock from the area, or a quarry, but that does not make it an Escher.

Howard :)

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Originally Posted by SirStropalot

Escher is a brand, not the name of stone. Eschers are Thuringians, but Thuringians are not necessarily Eschers. To be an Escher the Thuringian would have been graded by Escher and accepted only if it met their quality standards. That's why labeled Eschers command the high prices.....you know what you're getting.

With Thuringian you just, supposedly, know that the stone came from the same area and may or may not be suitable as a hone.

They may have sourced rock from the area, or a quarry, but that does not make it an Escher.

Howard :)

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Thanks... I'l steer clear then

I know how you feel. For that $199.00 I would set it aside and add a little when you can. Watch the classifieds here because Eschers come up now and then. eBay has them, but you have to be careful!! I've heard of and seen some dubious labels on stones claiming to be Escher.

On your Shaptons, stop at the 16k and maybe do 5 or so laps on crox and then strop normally. I don't like using crox, but it will tame a crisp edge until you can find an Escher if that's what you really want. I like my Escher very much. Usually from the 8k Shapton. My 30k is very lonely!! :D

Regards,

Howard :)

:gl:

As another less-experienced honester, I'll give you this: I got my first buttery edge off a coticule, no paste. Before that I was shaving off 8k, no paste.

I now have paste. And so I go from 8k to Coti to CrOx, then strop. I haven't found any more "butter" but i do have a Zulu in the mail. I hope to be able to make it my "super" natural finisher.

And if that is the case, then I shall severely curtail my HAD. If not, I expect to try rocks from all around the globe.

As i told my friends last night, "Once you shave with a buttery edge... it's the crack cocaine of shaving/honing".

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Originally Posted by Double0757

I don't have the 30k shapton but have the 1,2,4,8,16 shapton glass! I take the razor through the SG progression then go to the Escher/Turingian. I don't get more sharpness from the turi, but gain the smoothness from it. What I'm looking is to change the scratch pattern along the edge, to get that turi buttery feel, with light strokes.

You don't need a big stone for that. One of my favorite edges is from a 1 1/8" wide X 5" long light grey turi, that I use after the 16k SG.

Double O

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+1 to what Double0757 said!
Go and try to find an original Escher or labelled small size thuringian or an unlabelled one from a trusted source. Most of them go for around 50 to 80$. They will do the job since you only need a few strokes on the thuri at the final stage.
Even though I prefer large hones I also got some small thuris that I hold in hand just for touch-ups. With a little experience this works well.

Talk to Sham over at http://www.razorandstone.com - The Front Page as he always has some and just happens to know a thing or two about Eschers...

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Originally Posted by shooter74743

Talk to Sham over at http://www.razorandstone.com - The Front Page as he always has some and just happens to know a thing or two about Eschers...

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Thanks,
I took a bit of a chance on this. Abziehstein (Escher?) Thüringer Thuringian Water Hone / Razor Hone | eBay

Do u think i wasted my money? It was cheap

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Do u think i wasted my money? It was cheap

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There was many Thuringian stone in this type of box, some Escher as well, im thinking its one of them going by the pics, should turn out to be a fine stone, and the price paid was good.

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Originally Posted by Martin103

There was many Thuringian stone in this type of box, some Escher as well, im thinking its one of them going by the pics, should turn out to be a fine stone, and the price paid was good.

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Thanks.. The seller has sold Escher before and it all made sense.
Being dark blue, would that determine anything, are there dark blue Eschers and Thuringian's?
I think i read that the darker stones are maybe not as fine as the lighter yellow ones.

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Being dark blue, would that determine anything, are there dark blue Eschers and Thuringian's?
I think i read that the darker stones are maybe not as fine as the lighter yellow ones.

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There are indeed dark blue Eschers and Thuringian, perhaps the yellows are finer, but the blue stone are fine finisher as well. Its really all about learning the stone and make it work for you like all natural stones.

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I think i read that the darker stones are maybe not as fine as the lighter yellow ones.

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You said that perfectly. Yes, the darker stones are maybe not as fine. Then again, that leaves room for them to be maybe as fine also. FWIW, I use a dark blue MOST of the time, but I do have a yellow green, and a Naniwa 12k. I've spent more time with dark blues than any other, simply due to their abundance by comparison to the lighter colored stones. I don't see an appreciable difference. But that's only my opinion based on my experiences.

Basically, it's been my experience that if I get a vintage thuringian stone of any label, or with no label at all, that stone will be a good finishing stone, regardless of color. This has only been my experience. Others have bought stones called eschers or thuringians, or coticule even, and ended up with a big chunk of soft Arkansas stone. Not everyone selling stones really knows stones. But they do know what keywords get them the most views.

The very next post might come from someone whose experience dictates they tell you the dark blues are garbage compared to light greens. You'll find this to be one of the toughest things to deal with when asking for advice. Bottom line: You probably have a very good finishing stone, but only your own time and experience will bear it out.

The seller is a member here in the forum: Doorsch.
I am sure if you send a pm to him, he will answer all of your questions. Also I think he wouldn't sell the stone as thuringian if he was not sure as much as possible that the hone is one!

As for the difference in color of thuringians in general some short remarks:
The color indicates the layer from which the stones are mined. From these layers the yellow-green layer is superior to the other layers, which are green/gray/blue. This is because the abrasive particles are smaller and from another shape in the yellow green layer than in the other layers. There have been some investigations on this matter in Germany the last 80 years, beginning with studies of Max Volk in the 1930 til 1960 years.

Whereas the particles in the yellow-green layer have a size of 1-10µm, the particles reach an upper size of 20µm in general, the quarzite up to 50 microns in the blue layers. Also the chlorite, which is a main part in the yellow-green layer, less in the other colors, forms round agglomerates that captures the abrasive quartz particles. Thats why the yellow green stones are finer than the other colored thuringians. On the other hand, the material binding in the Y/G thuringians is less compared to the other layers, so raising a slurry is easier and will set more abrasive material free. That causes that the Y/G stones might be faster in honing with slurry even though they are finer.

All this said you still have to keep in mind: The differences are there, but they are small! Thuringian stones in general are superior. Also there are differences in the quality of each layer, so that sometimes the Y/G layer may have less quality to a grey/green one.

Whatever color you got - the honing capabilty makes the stone not the color! Enjoy your catch and report how it will work for you!

Many thanks to everyone, for all your comments,advise and knowledge.
Would it be the norm to hold this small hone in my hand whilst honing or to place it on a table.
Also how many laps should i be looking at performing and im guessing they should be laps with no pressure.
I will do the shapton 1k,4k,8k,16k then finish on the natural stone.

Thanks Hatzitcho for another very informative post. IME the dark blue is slower than the y/g. My impression was that it might be harder ? Not sure. I've had one really old one with the blue 'Celebrated' label and the E&Co cup image that was extremely fine albeit slow. I've had another that was not coarse, but coarse by comparison to the aforementiond dark blue. That one had the later Escher label with the barber shop scene with the man with the top hat. Both had 'dark blue' end labels though, so I'm sure of what they were.

If I had your shaptons I would go to the Thuringan after the 8k on a razor and then try it after the 16k on another. Just to compare and see where it fits in best. Then again, it might also depend on the particular razor, but I've had good luck going to Eschers after 8k.

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Many thanks to everyone, for all your comments,advise and knowledge.
Would it be the norm to hold this small hone in my hand whilst honing or to place it on a table...

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Methinks the length of the stone is a controlling factor. I'd probably use the same platform (hone bridge over sink) as I do my others.

Here's how Glen holds a barber hone: gssixgun Barber Hone.wmv - YouTube

They are your fingers. Best of luck.

^^^^^ that's how I hold mine! Don't use lather like on the video, that's a barber hone.

I would follow Jimmy's advice with one added step. Stop on the 8k, shave and don't leave until you tune it to your liking (with paste or back to the stones) then after you get comfortable try the Escher. Raise a slury and go for some strokes and check for increase sharpness, then dilute slowly until you get to water, strop and shave. If not much change. Then try going to the 16k then the turi with just water or very light slury and see.

I found my self that going to the 16k cuts on the time I have to spend on the turi to get a comparable edge with the turi out of the 8k. If you get the slury too milky or pasty (out of the 16k), it usually send back the edge on sharpness and you end up with more strokes and diluting to move closer to the sharpness it had on the 16k. So coming out of the 16k it's a more trickie on the turi. Also find that if I don't use slury the buttery is more of a fat free than the real thing. So using slury is my preference, but be judicious with it. That's why going from the 8k to the turi with slury is less fussy than from the 16k. At least IMH experience.

It's all experimentation=fun! With patience and practice, you will figure it out soon enough and enjoy the buttery shave from your stones. Enjoy Double O

I'd put it in a different way:
"No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly" (thanks Glen)

That is, stop at the 8k and start practicing with/out slurry, diluitions, etc. Try on many different steels and pressures and number of strokes etc.

If you only use it after the 16k you will never fully understand how it works.