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Hi, brand new to honing and am unsure what to get... the Norton looks like good value, the Naniwa gets good reviews, and the Shapton is a bit more expensive but doesnt need soaking and may be more consistant.
For consistency, easy of use and results, what would be recommended?
Or alternatively there are natural japanese stones, but from what I have read it seems like expertise is required to find a suitable one?
The Norton 4K/8K, the Shapton Glass and the Naniwa are in my experience, the most consistent and reliable stones out there. They can be mixed and matched and used with any type of razor with very good results. The biggest differences other than price are the actual feel of the razor on the stones. The Shapton Glass is ceramic in nature and the hardest feeling. The Naniwa is a resin based stone and it has a nice soft feel as though it was made for straight razors. All provide excellent feedback in use once you get used to them. The Shapton Glass probably are the easiest to clean and you can just spray and go with them. The others with the use of a DMT 325 or something similar lap up well and are pretty straight forward to clean as well. The Norton 4K is a little grainier feeling to me and the Norton 8K is similar to the Naniwa in feeling. You really can't go wrong with any of them.
Have fun.
Thanks Lynn,
Apart from web browsing, it was your website SRD that I narrowed down my options... I had contacted you via SRD about some other items you sell, and decided to buy from SRD to support your business and in appreciation from previous replies (I was also the guy who posted question on your youtube page recently re the Thater travel brush. I found your video with the the safety razor and saw the brush I was interested in. Thanks for that.), and also in appreciation for SRP. I love this forum, have met many great people here and found a wealth of knowledge :)
If you could only have one set (and obviously you're the master of honing), what would you choose yourself?
Cheers, AndrewJM
If your new to honing then you need to understand what makes hones different and what makes them similar.
Grit ratings.
The grit ratings that you see on the side/box of a stone do not use the same scale. The Norton standard is different to the Japanese standard, and I think shapton use the micron scale for grit size as well as a grit rating.
This means that If you were to grab a 6K jap standard stone then move onto an 8K Norton stone you would actually be taking a small step backwards on the grit system.
Google "hone grit conversion table" and the first link should be a conversion table hosted by SRP.
This difference in grit rating is only a problem if you mix and match stones. If all of your stones are the same make and use the same scale then you will have no problems.
If you have never honed then I would not advise you start by playing with a £100 razor. Go out and grab something cheap like a gold dollar or 2. You will mess up the finish, You will destroy the edge, You will use too much pressure and kill the spine/edge. None of these things want to be done to your good razors.
Once you have worked the gold dollars and feel confident that you are ready for something with a better grind then go get a vintage Ebay razor. Keep your budget cheap £25 or less. And if you can get that razor to shave, and you feel happy that everything went well then your ready to work on your £100> razors.
So what honing system to get...
I don't actually think it matters. Provided the stones remove metal, don't gouge, and can be kept flat then the rest is all about making sure you have the correct grit progression and learning the technique.
All the systems you have mentioned have followers here. I personally like King waterstones, They fit a tight budget and if your willing to give them a little time to soak, and a few more strokes on each grit they seem fine.
Regardless of the system your going to need to be attentive. So look at what you want your stones to do, and what your budget can afford.
I went for the cheapest stone I could get that had reviews that said it worked. That been the King icebear 1K/6K. The stone is slow and needs a soak in water to work. The speed and soak is offset by a really good price, and the fact it is a little slower means it is more forgiving to that odd duff stroke. Now for myself I'm looking higher up the grit rating to 10-12K. I have shaved for a few months from the 6K side and with a Crox strop it is an acceptable shave, and will pop hairs from the stone.
One thing I have picked up from a few months on here is that the finishing stone is far more important than the progression. If you can afford a full system then that is all fine, but your always going to be looking at the 10K+ end of things to get that perfect edge, but the 1K side of things something that works and doesn't hack the blade and add chips the the edge is as good as any other 1K stone that does the same thing.
I tend to use the Chosera 1K the most for bevel setting, the Norton 4K/8K next and then finish with the Naniwa 12K in everyday honing. Other than that, I will sometimes use just the Shapton Glass or Naniwa progression following the Chosera 1K for variety more than anything else. I also like a couple strokes on chromium oxide regardless of the finishing stone I am using other than the Suehiro 20K.
Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJM
I personally dislike the 4K side of the Norton 4/8 combo. As Lynn pointed out, it has a gritty feel to it and I find that it kicks off slurry as you are honing on it. It gets the job done but I would prefer a Naniwa alternative. But since its doing the job I haven't bothered to replace it. If I honed razors for other people I might opt to get a new one that I like more but to do so at this point is simply spending money foolishly. The 8k side feels like a completely different manufacturer made it. I haven't priced them to see what is more economical but I'd go with Naniwa over the Norton option if I were to do it all over again. I have not used Shapton. But that is based on preference. Norton gets the job done in spite of my preferences.
Thanks Lynn,
I have ordered the sight-unseen cheap razor from Larry at Whipped dog as a practice razor for both shaving and honing, which is in transit to Australia as we speak. I have also ordered the SRP custom from Robert Williams, which will be a number of months before delivery, and "the purist" from Robert Williams as well, which I should get in the next 2-4 weeks. I will also be ordering a charlie lewis from SRD in the near future, just waiting to see what happens with the $AUD to $US exchange rate. Considering I don't mind screwing up the cheapie from Larry and intend on getting another couple of cheapies from eBay or similar to play with, but wishing to be careful and respectful to my nice blades, would you still think a norton 4/8k would be the way to go? Im not restoring razors at this point.
Do I need a finer stone to use after the norton 8k? If so, what would suit my purchases and intended purchases? Im keen to get the best edge possible but at the same time can't afford to drop mega-dollars into this...
If you were closer and I didn't have to deal with the shipping costs, Id bypass the honing equipment all together and just pay you to maintain the bevel/edge. But I figure I have other knives I'd also like to hone to best edge possible (I have a couple of leatherman tools (on is knife only, approx 3.5 inch blade I think, one is the MUT multi-tool, both knives in 154cm steel)
Finally, I have been viewing your website pretty much daily for the last month, such great items available :) but so far haven't seen anything in your clearance section. Do you post items there often? Im always after a bargain when available :) I'm close to pulling the trigger on the Thater travel brush, looks great... if it wasn't for currency conversion and delivery costs, Id have it on the way to Australia already (not a comment on SRD prices, no objection there, its just the factors out of your control that affect us poor Aussies heaps!). In fact, if it wasn't for currency conversion and shipping, I would have ordered a Charlie Lewis instead of "the purist"... but the purist won in the end simply due to being $100+ (for an Aussie) cheaper. Give me a month or two and Im sure you'll see an order for a Charlie Lewis appear in your inbox :)
AndrewJM
This is what you need right here!
http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/No...m-P137C18.aspx
4 Nortons stones including the flatening stone... The case holds water and stone in place... Rotate for next stone! All you need! If i could start all over i would get this kitAttachment 153496
No but you will need a Crox pasted strop, to smooth out that edge a little. Shaving from the norton 8K is pretty common. It also means in the future you have a nice platform to go onto something that can further refine your edge. Be that a 10-12K hone, Or something more natural like a coticule, Jnat, Trans Arkie. Not everyone bothers with a finishing stone, and provided you get a good edge on the 8K then strop you might find you never want one.Quote:
Do I need a finer stone to use after the norton 8k
The 4/8 would also put a good edge on the knives you mentioned. And a Crox stropping afterwards never goes amis.
Once you have the stone and the strop then you should be pretty much setup for any razor that doesn't need a full bevel reset. If you have to reset a bevel then your going to either have to work very slowly on the 4K or grab a 1K.
Hey Andrew,
wow - rush much?!? ;) wish i could have started out buying so much so quick. Some very sweet razors you have on the way.
i would suggest trying to wait for the SE Queensland meet. i am sure some of us will have our honing gear and you could then experience a few first hand to see what you like.
i would also suggest using separate hones for knives and razors. Simply because a knife requires removal of far more steel than a razor; stones wear and must be kept perfectly flat for a razor. Knives are a little more forgiving. To get that perfect flat after honing a knife will mean removing more of your hone with a flattening stone. Essentially waste.
also, if not restoring, but just refreshing edges, then you probably do not need to go below 8K. If you are going to buy Ebay razors that may not be properly honed first, then yes, you will need a bevel setting stone about 1K, then something between that and 8K.
CrOx on balsa or felt is a cheap way to get a nice finish without going for the expensive hones above 12K. Once you pass that 12K level prices jump dramatically.
These are just my opinions, and everyone has theirs. Listening to someone like Lynn who has the wealth of experience to back up his opinion is the way to go.
Regards,
Adam.
If you want to use naniwa stones the 10mm thick ones come in fairly cheaply, I recently bought a 3k and 8k shipped for about $100. I also bought a chosera 1k which came in around the same price. The 12k naniwa is a bit more pricey though. You will also need something to lap your stones with, the DMT plates are cheaper than atoma ones, but I am lead to believe that atoma plates are better.
So all in I guess I have spent around $400 Australian on equipment, so about the same cost as one of those fancy razors you are getting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert2286
Got my stones here but got the naniwa 1,5 and 10 to start but now have the 8 and 12. Good prices and quick shipping
They're going to sell a T-ton of those.Quote:
Originally Posted by robert2286
I started with a Norton double combo kit, no wetbox and tri-holder. I'd gladly trade the flattening stone and 220 option back in on the box/holder.
In the longer run you'll (likely) wind up with a DMT that does the work of flattening as well as 220-grade stuff. And you'll buy a higher count finisher or natural.
But that the 8k edge shaved me fine whilst i was learning, and that was sans paste.
I would ask Max to hone and buy a Naniwa 12k as a finisher and get a gooood cotton and TM strop
Ive got an escher now for finishing stone - got one at a fair price from a kind gentleman/member of this forum, but still deciding whether to go the shapton glass 1/4/8 or the chosera 1k + naniwa 5/8/12. Get mixed advice from those who know their stuff. Both seem like very good options. More people suggest the chosera 1k to set the bevel, and it seems like the general advise is to stick with the same brand/style ie not use chosera 1k, then shapton, or vice versa? I like the idea of shapton as its just a splash of water then good to go, but far more people seem to have experience with chosera/naniwa.
Hey andrew,Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJM
As i understand it, the issue with mixing brands is that the grit ratings arent consistent, i think this is to do with the hardness of the binder that holds the abrasive together, but at the 1k level it shouldnt matter, its just as you get higher grits, and ratings that are reasonably close that its going to matter.
Though i could well be wrong, and hopefully i will be corrected.
I personally like to stay with one "brand/honing system". I use Naniwa CHosera 1K, Shapton GS 2,4,8,16K followed by finisher of choice. Most of the time my finisher is a Escher, however I am having fun with my new 20K that is showing a lot of potential on German, American, and custom blade steels. Personally I'm not much on mixing and matching my honing stones as the "feel" is too different & the key to learning to hone is learning to feel. As far as the comment on "grit" ratings, I'm not too keen on worrying about that as my "next" stone is normally twice the previous stone (1,2,4,8,16). Something that is also kind of cool is that I tend to use about half the amount of strokes as I did on the previous stone as well with the shapton's.
My personal key to honing is having a stone that will:
Set a bevel: 800-2K
Pre-Polish: 3-6K
Polish: 8-10K
Finish: 8K+
