Printable View
Why does everyone advocate for noobs to learn how to get a good shave off an 8k synthetic before moving onto a finishing stone?
I just read something like this... again: As always, newbies should learn to achieve a good 8k shave before proceeding to any finisher.
Now I am not running anyone down. Not trying to be insightful or deep... heck, I might have said that once back in the day as well. It seems as though we all say it! But today, well today it makes no sense.
I started out with a 1k,5k,8k and 12k Naniwa set. To me, the real measure of success in honing, is what happens at the 1k level. Not that I'd want to shave off of it.
it because an 8k gives a nice shave by itself, if you cant achieve a nice shave from an 8k there would be no benefit in moving up to anything higher. It would be a waste.
Once you have mastered the 8k, then you can get some benefit from a higher grit stone
I think because the 8k is the first grit up the ladder where you can have a real nice shave. So if your using a 1,4,8 progression or just a 4/8, and you can get great shaves you have learned the basics. I stayed at that level for a year. Why? Because I could. I was real happy with my razors and didn't need a change. Now I have moved on, but, I am glad I spent that much time on the basics. Like anything else I have learned to do well, it's all in the basics :<0)
I have 4 razors,2 antiques and 2 new Dovos from Lynn.The Norton 4/8 and Lynn's modular paddle are all I've needed to copy and maintain his edge's.A 12k finisher would be nice,but not needed for a B.B.S. irritation free shave for me.March will be the end of my 2nd year shaving with a straight.Maybe for my 3rd year I will buy that 12k stone we'll see!
I have a Naniwa 12k, I rarely use it, after 8k I go to either coticule or escher, enough for me.
I stayed with the Norton 4/8 combo for over a year and am very happy that I did. It seemed that every time I honed I learned more about the hone and more about how to hone. It kept the variables down for me. Every time I thought I could not get a better edge off the 8k I got a better edge. Only when I was getting great edges consistently on all my razors did I get a Naniwa 1k and 12k.
Probably because you can get a nice shaving edge of a 12k to start but when you look back in a year once the AD's wear down a bit you realise that those 12k edges weren't great and you could do just as well now with the 8k. Its like using pastes it is almost like a false positive. The edge will be there but its a crap foundation because you moved to quick and didn't get the best from every level because put simply your still new and aren't there yet. That's why to stay with the 8 so you can be at the base level of sharp and get it right so when you do move up it is an improvement and not a bodge up.
The one thing I've begun to caution new guys about is that getting a good shaving edge from an 8k is not the same as one finished one or two steps beyond that. And your attempts to get the same edge from an 8k will be an exercise in frustration. A good shaving edge from an 8k should not be confused with one professionally finished.
We're overthinking it. The point is that if you can't get a good shaving edge finished on the 8K, the problem is not with the finisher. No finisher in the world will make up for a bad bevel. Well, I suppose we could set bevels on a 30K Shapton but we might need six months to do it.
rs,
Tack
While what you are saying appears to be true, I don't think anyone is using an 8K to set a bevel either. I think the question that earcutter is proposing is why have we settled on 8k as the benchmark vs. ?.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack
It's all about learning the basics and building a solid foundation, the key word is foundation. You must learn to use these three stones effectively:
bevel setter (*/- 1000 grit)
pre-polisher (+/- 4000 grit)
polisher (+/- 8000 grit)
Learning to use a finisher (above 8000 grit) is futile...your shaves will still be terrible if you don't have the first three stones conquered.
I personally recommend that a person should learn to touch up a razor that is starting to pull first with a barber hone, 12K, or 16K. This way someone isn't working with re-setting a bevel.
I agree with this but I think we have all seen that it is often suggested to new guys, even those just wanting to maintain an already good edge, that they get a Norton 4/8k. That may be a good stone for overall use but if you're primary goal is to just maintain, I agree with you that the 12k or 16k is a better choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by shooter74743
Well its been a couple of days and 13 reply's, and I still don't see it. Thanks for your inputs gents.
I don't know, I guess it just seems to me if you can't get a 8K shave (and why would you want one), then you can't get a 12K shave. Heck, if you can't work the 3K stone, you can't work any stone. Moreover, I agree (maybe incorrectly) that the bevel setting is the most important aspect to honing.
I mean if you blow an 8K hone, you still have to go backward, so why not try for the best and work backward from there? One more stone isn't going to make or break it in my opinion. Perhaps I just don't see that big a difference between mastering an 8k and a 10 or 12K.
I guess I can see what you are all saying, but to me, it's akin to only putting in regular gas in a Porsche until you have had if for a month or two just so you know what if feels like to drive a normal car. Why?
Maybe it's just me - its not like I'll never be able to drive a Porsche to its full potential, but I'll always make sure it has the best gas/tires etc and try... I can't seem to separate that notion or way of thinking when it comes to honing. I'll always and have always strive for the best finish. Sure at first I couldn't get it but it didn't harm me in any way - I simply had to go back again. Like many of us do.
I mean it's not that it matters - we do what makes us happy and what we feel is right... I just don't like my 8K only hones nearly as much as my 10K. Maybe I should have practiced with it more lol... who knows? All I know is I significantly prefer a 10K finish over my 8K...
I think this is exactly what I'm saying when I say that there's no point in trying to replicate a professionally honed edge with an 8k stone. The 8k edge should shave but not like a 20k edge. If it did, why would we bother with them? I think the popular opinion is that at 8k the edge has crossed into the "shaveable" territory where at 4k, its still quite a miserable, harsh shave. And I think that we often stress the bevel setting stage and the 8k stage at the detriment of the 4k. So much so, that I've seen people post that they go right from 1k to 8k. All of this I find is a symptom of the inadequacy of words to fully convey what a person needs to know in order to recognize when to move from one grit/stone to the next. It has one person skipping the 4k stage and another potentially thinking that 12k will correct what 8k failed to achieve.Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
Ah, I see the confusion. I don't think we have set the 8K as a benchmark. It is, rather, the lowest grit hone that we would consider to be a finisher. Once again, if we haven't done our jobs at the bevel and intermediate refining stages, the finisher.. whatever it might be.. will be of little help. We'd just end up with very smooth sides on the bevel of a dull razor.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
If we want to change the conversation to what is the "benchmark" or the "best" finishing hone we'd better prepare for hand to hand combat. :)
rs,
Tack
The petrol you drizzle into the tank has practically zero affect on the road feel and responsiveness of the drive one experiences in a Porsche (or whatever legendary sporting car one chooses). And only a yahoo pushes the true envelope of any vehicle on public roadways. My BMW was faster than my Porsche yo and my truck has over 2x the power either of them had. :dropjaw:Quote:
Originally Posted by earcutter
I shaved off the 8k when i had a coticule in house, because i was a novice honer and didn't understand how to use the coticule properly. The 8k shave is a good one, ESPECIALLY when you are learning everything all at once.
My face, now more educated can differentiate and appreciate many more degrees of sharpness, but a new shoe ain't going to know the diff. I didn't. But then I started at the must-restore-to-use end of the spectrum.
I don't know what you are looking for. I follow the logic of the other responders.
Shaving at 8k is a measure of your ability to hone. It's a learning tool. It can be (and I do) used for a check up of your progress no matter where you wind up. I was shaving off 8k with no paste. Works fine. Still does, but no one is required to do so.
You like your 10k, great. Rock on!
I would never recommend someone take that small a step from 8k, I'd jump to 12/16 or Natz. If one "finds himself" with a 10k stone, then by all means use it as it fits your needs. This whole bidness is VERY personal and varied. cheers.
And whut Tack said.
Well, I really do not see the reason either. You can get a 12k and learn to maintain a razor. Unless you are trying to learn how to hone/bevel set than that is another story. If you are trying to restore than that is a another mystery that completely eludes me. I think the 8k is only going to take you so far. Yes, I guess you can really wring as much as you can out of it, a la JNorton, but at the end of the day it is just the next to the last step.....or maybe the last?
I haven't done a very good job of stating my opinion. Sorry about that, I'll try to do better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephisto
The 8K edge was never intended to be the benchmark of a good edge or a quality shave. The reason for the "if you can't get a good shave off the 8K.." remark was that we all spend so much time talking about finishers as we, as gssixgun put it "chase the rainbow" looking for the perfect edge that a newcomer easily can the impression that all the magic is in the finisher. We know that smooth comes from the finisher while the sharp pretty much has to already be there by the time we get to the finisher but he doesn't.
How about we rephrase the admonition to "If you can't get a good shave off your finisher, chances are that buying a "better" finisher will not help you"? Or we could say "Don't rush out to buy that 30K GS until you've learned to finish on the one you have because you are likely to be disappointed."
Again, the recommendation was not about the quality of the 8K edge but about learning to use the equipment you already have before jumping into more advanced stuff. My granddad once said to me, in another context, "You got to be at least 10% smarter than the equipment you're running, boy." Those words seem appropriate here as well.
rs,
Tack
Wow!! Remind me to never talk cars with you!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by WadePatton
Yes the topic is "VERY personal and varied" - thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps you'll note I am trying to make headway with my feelings on the topic... Glad you're so confident in your position. Dang!
My comment was not directed at you, just the the very first post made. I feel that we are in the same ball park, you should know your tools, but it does not take a lot to get to know an 8k synthetic stone. I really do not do that much work there, if there is something lacking am starting to I think i needed more work else where. I think an 8k is really only going to teach you in relationship to another lower grit stone. What one stones does for the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tack
Anyway, should one learn an 8 k before going to more advanced stuff? I would say that going to the 12k is not going more advanced. It should be easy by that point. So why go down to the 8k in the first place? If you just have an 8k and that works then go for it.
I was taught/told when I started into this sport that exact thing, to learn to get a good shaving edge from an 8K hone.
My feelings on it are this, and it goes back to the reasoning I was told when asking the same question...an 8K is for the most part an easily accessed hone (Norton 4/8K) so there's a lot of info and help out there on how to use this hone to achieve a good edge for shaving. The 8K also brings you into the basic level of polishing for an edge on a straight razor. So if you can achieve a good, comfortable shaving edge off of the 8K then it gives you the basics to move on and experiment with other higher grit hones.
If you can't achieve such an edge from an 8K then to bother going any further you are in essence just polishing a turd.
What if I only want to maintain my pro-honed razors? I don't need an 8K but I want to hone, so I'm going to get a JNat. I'll learn slowly and if I muck up the edge, send it back to the honemeister to fix.
Exactly. Or teach yourself to fix it (self-teaching has never been easier) with proper tools.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwichris
Horses for Courses.
As i was typing this i was thinking this would be a great example for the saying "Taking the harder path" although after a second thought and half way through typing this post i decided.. surely you have seen that this would be the hardest way to learn.. You saw the harder path and instead decided to take secluded track, blindfolded with no water, food or means of communication.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwichris
If you do decide to go down this path, make sure you buy from a vendor who knows what they are selling, to jump from nothing to a jnat is huge so be prepared to send your razor off to the honemaster quite a few more times.. I hope this doesn't come across too harsh as its not intended to be.. You never know though, it may work for you :)
Thoughts...
Touch up / Maintain -vs- Honing
Two separate things, however I would feel very well armed to "Maintain" any razor for years on an 8k
Really the discussion is only about "Learning to hone" and you should probably try shaving at each level of sharp from the Bevel set up though polishing/pre-polishing, that will really give you an idea of what each level does to the edge..
The 8k shave recommendation is just that, a recommendation and is there to save Newbs some hard earned coin, it isn't a rule set in stone, but it is a truth that we figured out after watching the new guys throw money at the edge without learning the skills to make those expensive stones work for them...
So some years back we tried to help the new guys out by explaining that they should really get a good shave at the 8k level (note the word level) before throwing $$$$ at finishers...
Like many of the other recommendations here designed to make this hobby more affordable, more comfortable, easier, and just more fun, the 8k shave one is often ignored...
I use a 3k & 8k synthetic stone, with a chrome oxide and iron oxide pasted strop - works well enough and gives a shave ready razor. Total cost stands at £20 so far, all in.
I'd just echo the notion that the 8k recommendation shouldn't be construed as a benchmark. But if new shavers would just accept it as a well intentioned, tried and true, recommendation from people who are trying to keep you from repeating their mistakes, this'd all go a bit more smoothly. Sometimes ya just gotta believe, y'know? Kinda like when Dad said don't pee on the electric fence. Sure, it seemed like he was just raining on your parade. But seriously...Don't pee on the electric fence.
Dave,
I actually did the reverse. I bought a Naniwa 12k as my first stone *AND* was nudged toward buying a Nagura slurry stone to make the 12K(and any other stone I got) more versatile. The 12K and .30 CrOx was first for me.
That being said, it was only a short time and several "Buy it Now"s, before I needed to buy a king 1K and a Nani 3/8K combo, a loupe, etc....
Regards,
Your Granddad was well informed! The exact thing I tell my youngest. And you're only as good as your tools...but you have to know your tools first!
If I had to do it allll over again, I'd ask Max to hone my razors and get a Naniwa 12k to keep the blade refreshed