Enhanced Jnat.

So last night i honed my "Not a Replica" Hart Steel blade, using the enhanced jnat method.
This method is from Dr.Matt.
I took the blade through the Shapton range.
Then i made a slurry on my Jnat and added a spray of the Ken Swartz .10 micron CBN and worked it for 20 mins.
The finish was a nice straight edge and the bevel was no longer shiny but more of a matt/satin finish.
I just had a shave. My face is still stinging haha.
The blade is very sharp but not smooth.
After the first pass i could feel my skin stinging . Also on the second pass , going upwards on my top lip , the blade was stuttering and thats the point where i can really tell a smooth finish.
Dont get me wrong, i have had a super close shave but not a super smooth one and my face still stings a bit.
I'm happy in a way because im not a massive fan of sprays and pastes and i'd rather just use my Jnat as is.
Next step is the finish on the dry slurry trick, i'll hone that up tonight ready for my next shave.
See yu :)Attachment 157206

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Originally Posted by JOB15

Then i made a slurry on my Jnat and added a spray of the Ken Swartz .10 micron CBN and worked it for 20 mins.

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I have not heard of this method before. Is there something special about the combined slurries over one of the individual slurries?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I have not heard of this method before. Is there something special about the combined slurries over one of the individual slurries?

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Have a look at this video
Supercharged JNAT Straight Razor Edge - YouTube

So having done some of these experiments with paste/sprays and stones, I have encountered much the same results.

The biggest factor is your stone. CBN, Diamond, Cerium or Chrome Oxide will or can compound the slurry and produce a fine keen edge on a properly prepared bevel. But depending on the stone grit and hardness can leave a harsh edge, much like film.

High grit paste/Spray on a hanging strop can convex the edge minutely and produces a much more comfortable shaving edge and maintain keenness, though you may have to drop down to .125 or .50 CBN to profile the bevel and then maintain it on .125 and or .10.

I have produced similar result on old hard Surgical and Translucent Arks and some slates with CBN. The stone slurry plays a large part and here is where YMMV, as does pressure, technique your skin and beard.

CBN is great for comfort once you have established the edge and to maintain it indefinitely. It is just a continuation of the age old balance, of keenness and comfort… and tailoring an edge for your face.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

So having done some of these experiments with paste/sprays and stones, I have encountered much the same results.

The biggest factor is your stone.

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We know that already he he.

I wonder why would one put CBN on a Jnat, a quality Jnat needs no crutches to make a top notch edge

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I wonder why would one put CBN on a Jnat, a quality Jnat needs no crutches to make a top notch edge

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I know little but ill second that:popcorn:

I just tried the dried slurry technique and i'm not impressed :/
It took quite a while to set the bevel and get the blade to where i wanted it before hitting the Jnat.
I did 10 mins on the Jnat with slurry, then i let the slurry dry.
I did 5 laps on the dried slurry but my blade was scraping up the dried slurry. I'm thinking that cant be good for the edge.
Probably i started off with too much slurry, damn.
The blade is keen but i have to wait until next weekend to try it out :)

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I wonder why would one put CBN on a Jnat, a quality Jnat needs no crutches to make a top notch edge

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I agree. I'm not sure what Jnat you have, as there are many, and each kind is different, but again, every stone is different, and, they do generally give top notch edges. You can try the "X spray on stone" or "Y powder" or "Z paste" on this stone but, although they do look great in the microscope and even better on the youtube, the shaves have nothing to do with Jnats.
I don't think the "dry slurry" is an actual method. It's more like the extension of the "use thin slurry and keep honing without adding water when it starts to dry until you feel it's shave ready" method, you don't have to breath Jnat dust :) for me, it works. No big difference, and I don't have enough experience in the method, but there is a small difference in the feeling.

Never tried cbn on a Jnat. But what happened to you is why I didnt want to try it. 2 tomo slurries if you have one that works, is a great easy way to top off after an 8k or even 5k.

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Originally Posted by JOB15

I just tried the dried slurry technique and i'm not impressed :/
It took quite a while to set the bevel and get the blade to where i wanted it before hitting the Jnat.
I did 10 mins on the Jnat with slurry, then i let the slurry dry.

I did 5 laps on the dried slurry but my blade was scraping up the dried slurry. I'm thinking that cant be good for the edge.


Probably i started off with too much slurry, damn.
The blade is keen but i have to wait until next weekend to try it out :)

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And there is the "Trick" if you are lifting dust you did something wrong or it won't work on your stone


What kind of slurry ???
It needs to be a light slurry and well worked and broken down
I have never even attempted this with anything but slurry off the stone only, Nagura slurry hasn't ever worked for me doing this technique
The strokes have to be so smooth and light that you don't pick up dust on the edge

If you feel you are doing everything right and it is still picking up dust then it is not going to work with your stone :(

This technique isn't easy..

+1 to what Glen is saying. There are numerous other ways that are easier IMO to work a Jnat. Theres a reason they are called waterstones. Not being sarcastic friend, just trying to see if we can get this straightened out for you.

I did tried .1 CBN slury on the Zulu with good results. Found that if the finished edge was good out of the Zulu, a little stropping on .25 and .1 CBN had similar results with the added benefit of saving the CBN spray.

If we don't experiment with the stones, Jnats or not, because is always been used with water, we will never know if it produce better edge or not.

I'm not saying that the old ways should be cast aside, actually , old ways are generally true and tried methods, but will never know if we don't experiment. Double O

I cannot see the point of buying fancy and expensive stones and using them with all sorts of slurries. Why not use a piece window pane glass to apply the slurries, sprays etc? I don't think you will even start to appreciate the qualities an expensive stone when using it in an adulterated fashion.

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Originally Posted by Double0757

If we don't experiment with the stones, Jnats or not, because is always been used with water, we will never know if it produce better edge or not.

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I do not agree here, a good Jnat does not need any sprays to produce good edge. Basically if one has a good finisher and know how to use it no sprays are necessary at all.
I said it before in other threads, some people make honing a rocket science. Adding more steps in the process will not help with he final result, it may cause serious headaches trying to figure out what is going on when there is a problem. There is time tested perfect formula for honing in place: set bevel correctly , use your finishing hone correctly.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I do not agree here, a good Jnat does not need any sprays to produce good edge. Basically if one has a good finisher and know how to use it no sprays are necessary at all.
I said it before in other threads, some people make honing a rocket science. Adding more steps in the process will not help with he final result, it may cause serious headaches trying to figure out what is going on when there is a problem. There is time tested perfect formula for honing in place: set bevel correctly , use your finishing hone correctly.

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"Good edge", agree that, you should not need any sprays to get good edges. That's why we buy expensive finishers. However, depending on the finisher, the particles could reach a limit that could be enhance with smaller man made sprays (CBN, diamond, CrOx), to produce something that in your opinion is a better edge.

I get good edges from my Zulu, but IMHO I get a better edge when I use some CBN (on wool felt) stropping after. This are all opinions, but you'll never know for yourself unless you try it.

I was perfectly happy with 16k and spray, then I tried an Escher edge that got me hooked on to naturals. Good edges can be had by many means. And I'm sure the Jnats (from what I read) are among the best.

I'm learning on Coticule at this time. I'm trying the true and tried methods (unicut and dilocut), but this doesn't mean that after learning and getting "good edges" with this methods, I can not experiment, by taking a scientific approach, with turi, Zulu, nagura or any kind of slury, I could produce some edge that IMO are better edges than with the true and tried methods. Yes, it can back fire, but that's part of the fun!

Well keep going then! LOL and let us know what you find. I have experimented with cbn on various mediums and find it is easy to create a harsh edge with it. Ive never used it on a hone though. Not saying it doesnt work or that you are wasting your time now.

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Originally Posted by Double0757

"Good edge", agree that, you should not need any sprays to get good edges. That's why we buy expensive finishers. However, depending on the finisher, the particles could reach a limit that could be enhance with smaller man made sprays (CBN, diamond, CrOx), to produce something that in your opinion is a better edge.

I get good edges from my Zulu, but IMHO I get a better edge when I use some CBN (on wool felt) stropping after. This are all opinions, but you'll never know for yourself unless you try it.

I was perfectly happy with 16k and spray, then I tried an Escher edge that got me hooked on to naturals. Good edges can be had by many means. And I'm sure the Jnats (from what I read) are among the best.

I'm learning on Coticule at this time. I'm trying the true and tried methods (unicut and dilocut), but this doesn't mean that after learning and getting "good edges" with this methods, I can not experiment, by taking a scientific approach, with turi, Zulu, nagura or any kind of slury, I could produce some edge that IMO are better edges than with the true and tried methods. Yes, it can back fire, but that's part of the fun!

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I refrain from using the term top notch edges etc. but that is what I meant.
If a hone can't give you that it is either you or the hone. Sprays can mask for deficiencies but if you want to consider pure results it can be done with no sprays.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I refrain from using the term top notch edges etc. but that is what I meant.
If a hone can't give you that it is either you or the hone. Sprays can mask for deficiencies but if you want to consider pure results it can be done with no sprays.

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I agree 100% with you. I get better edges from the Zulu and the turis now than I did a year ago. Sometimes the edge is so good, I don't want to mess with sprays, afraid I ruin it, but other times, the edge is good, but I feel that by using sprays I can make them better. Not every body has the depth of experience as you and others here.

You don't know for certain if the stone gave all it has to offer (mos probably is the honer), but why deny yourself of a better edge by using sprays. So, sprays cover a multitude of sins! Then I ask for forgiveness and enjoy a guilt free shave. LOL!

Only judging on the pic provided but I'm surprised .10 CBN leaves such a hazy finish, almost like a prepolisher. A good kasumi finish is actually reflective like a mirror, grey coloured but reflective.
I'll be interested to hear how you improve the edge but I'd go carefully at this point. 4 strokes on a perfectly clean dry finisher would be my starting point.

Ive used paste after jnats many times. Is it wrong? NO Imo, but you can certainly improve your honing to get there without it. It all depends what your looking for. If all we wanted was a shave, we could have stopped at the 8k norton.

I use pastes or sprays often, just before I go back to finish on the stone.

Thats interesting... I never tried that. Thanks for the tip! Is that kind of what Iwasaki was saying about removing a false or wire edge? I typically do very short strokes to finish and run very short parallel to the edge strokes.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Thats interesting... I never tried that. Thanks for the tip! Is that kind of what Iwasaki was saying about removing a false or wire edge? I typically do very short strokes to finish and run very short parallel to the edge strokes.

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Yes, that's where I got the idea.

I took an oohira kiita like a level 3 stone that I typically use for prefinishing and decided to try it. This stone has never delivered as a finisher. it gives a shaveable edge, but is short of the keen edges I get off my harder finer finishers. Well it shaved pretty well today. I decided to hone another blade, bevel set, ohhira kiita botan, and 2 tomo slurries on an umegehata gousa. After I broke the slurry the second time, I could feel the stiction as I usually do, so I stopped and did 15 laps on crox then returned to finish on the gousa. The feel on the stone had no stiction at all, very smooth, so I did about 7 laps until feedback started kicking in again. Whatever the crox did, it did something as the feedback was gone after the crox, and took some laps to get it back. Maybe the stiction is indicative of a wire or false edge, I dont know. But will test shave that one tomorrow. Another adventure! Thanks for the tip again. I did a scrub of the blade on felt before returning to the stoneso as to not contaminate the stone so eliminating that as a cause of feedback change.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I use pastes or sprays often, just before I go back to finish on the stone.

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This was unclear to me. By going back to the stone, did you mean you were coming from pastes or sprays on a strop?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

This was unclear to me. By going back to the stone, did you mean you were coming from pastes or sprays on a strop?

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Mostly at end game in honing, because any earlier i just progress to next stone, I will strop on diamond sprayed felt then go back to the finisher for some minimal strokes or whatever I deem necessarry. It is mostly a correction for a slight wire or what Iwasaki calls a "false edge". Not always needed & currently experimenting with the Gokumyo 20k to see if it can replace the felt strop..

I was experimenting today with some back strokes, it appears that doing them changes the edge enough to eliminate the stiction or feedback I was getting before. And some laps are necessary to get it back. Im not sure where this will lead me if anywhere, but I will keep going and see.

Another Japanese traditional way would be to swipe up some broken down slurry with the palm of your hand, let it dry and strop on it.

Shalt on and Naniwa bones are king