Any idea what I could be doing wrong?

I bought a set of 4 razors off ebay for a very reasonable price. Almost all of the razors have a mirror finish, and one razor which is marked as "Indian steel" has some black marks and a small nick in the edge.

I've also got a norton 4k/8k which I've lapped by following the guide(1). I drew the grid onto the 400git sandpaper and did both sides 4 times. Then I did the 800 grit for 2 grids.

When I attempted to hone the razors, I them up and down with the circle method (2). 40 circles with firm pressure. 40 circles with light pressure. 10 strokes with no pressure. After that, it couldn't cut arm hair, which I heard it was supposed to.
After that, I did the pyramid method (3), and by the end of it, I could actually run my finger down the edge of the blade and not get cut.

1 Hone Lapping 101 - Straight Razor Place Library
2 Straight Razor Honing-Norton 4K/8K Circle Method - YouTube
3 Pyramid honing guide - Straight Razor Place Library

Edit: Just realised this is in the wrong section of the forums. Could a moderator please move this?
Thanks.

Have you done the magic marker test? That seems to be helpful to see if you are getting to the edge along the length of the blade.
Depending on the condition of the edge, I would think it could take a lot more than the circles/strokes you're describing on a 4k. I've had ebay edges that take a lot more than that on a 1k. Just depends. Do you have any pictures? Maybe the experienced honers will chime in.

Shane

Putting a fresh bevel on an ebay blade with a Norton 4K may take a little time. I'd forget about pyramids etc for the moment and just work with the 4K until you got a nice functional bevel. Could takes hours, just keep an eye on the edge & work on a smooth even stroke.

http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/...psf55e1b98.jpg
http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/...ps6b6d04b6.jpg
http://i1306.photobucket.com/albums/...psb8b20721.jpg

Those are all different razors.

Here is a vid of gssixgun and speedster honing a razor. I've watched it 3 times and and a whole new world opened up. Gssixgun stresses the importance of technique and careful inspection of the bevel and edge as you progress. He watches speedster's work like a hawk and catches everything haha. Keep working methodically on your edges but most importantly don't give up. You'll probably be shaving with one sooner than you think.:D Oh ya its on speedsters new 4/8k.

gssixgun Straight Razor Honing with speedster from SRP - YouTube

Try to forget about the numbers - they are guides only. What matters is setting a good bevel. Without that, nothing else will get a good edge.

A useful test is the 'magic marker' test. Take a permanent black marker and mark the edge. Then do a couple of passes on your bevel setting hone (4K if you're using the 4/8k) and examine the edge closely - under magnification if possible. If there is still marker showing at the very edge, your bevel is not set. There are other tests you can do (thumbpad, thumbnail tests work well for me) but this one is quick and should give an idea of what's actually happening at the edge.

So don't worry about doing X-number of passes, strokes, or circles and focus on the bevel itself.

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Originally Posted by Proinsias

Putting a fresh bevel on an ebay blade with a Norton 4K may take a little time. I'd forget about pyramids etc for the moment and just work with the 4K until you got a nice functional bevel. Could takes hours, just keep an eye on the edge & work on a smooth even stroke.

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Hours? I was reading another guide that only recommended 10passes or so to set a bevel, otherwise there's the danger of over-honing. Does that only apply to razors that have never been honed, like dovos?

I don't know about your blades... but I do know that just about everything I bought off the Bay has needed a bevel setting. Bevel setting with a 4K is work - for me at least.

Once I started buying Bay - I bought a 1K... and then a 325. Bevels are huge.

Well that's what I think anyway.

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Originally Posted by Amenrab

Hours? I was reading another guide that only recommended 10passes or so to set a bevel, otherwise there's the danger of over-honing. Does that only apply to razors that have never been honed, like dovos?

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No, it does not. It takes usually takes much more than that to set a bevel. Do you recall the location of that other guide?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

No, it does not. It takes usually takes much more than that to set a bevel. Do you recall the location of that other guide?

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http://wiki.badgerandblade.com/Creat..._Initial_Bevel

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Typically this is about all that is needed for a new razor--5 front and back strokes on the 4K side of a Norton, HOWEVER it is not uncommon at all to need more. If the razors spine and blade feel completely flat on the hone, this should be all that is needed. The best way to tell if the razor is properly honed at this stage unfortunately is to move onto the next stage--polishing/establishing the initial shaving sharp edge, and testing the shaving sharp edge. Personally, I try to shave a little bit of hair on my arm, or back of my hand and based on how easy, or difficult it is to pop the hairs off, I can gauge how much more time on the 4K the edge needed. Sometimes I end up over honing on this stage, which means the microscopic "fin" I had created with the hone had broken off, or folded and I have to back hone. Back honing is quite simple - it is basically doing the opposite motion on the hone, so you are dragging the razor spine first on the hone, but remember you still want to roll the razor on the spine, NOT the edge to switch directions. Again, this is where honing can become difficult/tricky -- and it takes experience to know when a razor is ready to move onto the next stage, or when you have over honed, so make sure to ask questions on the forum in the honing section, but armed with the above, you'll be able to take experienced members advice/suggestions and put them to good use!

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Actually, I'm starting to see that I may have misinterpreted it. I saw 5 strokes, then that he sometimes overhones, then thought that he saw saying going (significantly) over 5 strokes has the danger of over-honing.

Liked this video also. If I'm not sure what's going wrong, I'll either stop and post, or stop and watch or stop and read or just STOP!

Each razor is unique and may pose entirely different challenges from the next. The first looks particularly challenging with the frown.

Regards,

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Originally Posted by Amenrab

Actually, I'm starting to see that I may have misinterpreted it. I saw 5 strokes, then that he sometimes overhones, then thought that he saw saying going (significantly) over 5 strokes has the danger of over-honing.

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When I was in culinary school a lot of the new students would ask, "chef, how long do I cook this?" The answer was always the same - until it's done. "Until it's done".....sounds simple enough but what is implied is that you KNOW when it's done. That's the real hard part about honing is knowing when it's done and when it's not. What do you look for? What indicates that it's done? Think in those terms and the learning curve may be a little less. You may count circles or strokes in terms of say sets of five or something. But the total number it takes to do anything is always going to be unique. As you're approaching this, think in terms of how, when, and where. Never how much. How much is for book keepers and coroners. It's after the fact.

Yeah, I'm learning that too(we are always in a perpetual state of learning, are we not?). Early on(which means not that many months ago), I started to realize this profundity in my honing.

From what I've witnessed, when one gets to a level of proficiency, one just knows. However, when in doubt, do your tests. The thumb nail test and marker tests for bevel setting,,, HHT, ARM, shave test... not all in that order, except for the bevel setting tests....

Bell sounded, off to next class :)

I can say this. Old razors were all honed differently by different hands. They have been used to open boxes and letters. My best results have been to make sure it is dead dull and tape the spine 1 layer and hone on a DMt until it gets 'pocketknife' sharp. Then look at the bevel. If it is way too wide, hone it some more on 1k to get the scratches out and , with 2 layers, go at the DMT lightly a bit. THEN go to the hones. If you are not touching the edge or trying to hone too wide a bevel, it will take a lifetime! I DO use a well-worn DMT for this with LOTS of water. No need to push down! Light!
JMHO

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Originally Posted by Amenrab

Hours? I was reading another guide that only recommended 10passes or so to set a bevel, otherwise there's the danger of over-honing. Does that only apply to razors that have never been honed, like dovos?

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I wouldn't worry much about overhoning when trying to set bevel on an old razor with a 4K stone, I've never had a new razor but anything I've bought off the bay has seen a fair bit of time on a 1K. Even with shave ready blades from other members I've done a lot more than 10 passes to get the bevel in step with my honing stroke.

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Originally Posted by Amenrab

Actually, I'm starting to see that I may have misinterpreted it. I saw 5 strokes, then that he sometimes overhones, then thought that he saw saying going (significantly) over 5 strokes has the danger of over-honing.

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Actually I think you were mis-led. There is a lot that I disagree with in that link.

First and most critically, you will be hard-pressed to ever come close to setting a bevel on any razor doing 5 strokes on a 4k or even a 1k.

Rather than running down an entire list, I'll just say that you are in NO peril of over-honing during a bevel set on a 4k or a 1k. You may remove more steel than necessary, but you are not going to create a fin, or burr, during the bevel setting of a razor. Such a burr is the definition of over-honing at this stage and you will be hard-pressed to ever see it on a razor. In my opinion, over-honing on a razor only occurs on the higher grit synthetics when the edge becomes too brittle.

I guess if the bevel was set properly and its come round to set it again and there is little to correct then 5 strokes might be sufficient. Still, it is a little vague.

I've done precisely what was mentioned in the last part of Utopia's post, fortunately it was a gold dollar razor. I hadn't set the bevel correctly and continued on to hone with a high grade synthetic stone until the edge couldn't take it any more. With that said, I'd been honing for hours on the high grade synthetic with increasing pressure on the blade.

You certainly live and learn - the importance of getting the bevel right was a lasting lesson from that experience.

I finally managed to set a bevel using 1200 grit sandpaper, thanks to jelajemi for recommending that, but now I can't get it to shave arm hair without touching the skin.

I've tried starting from 25 and following this pattern Pyramid honing guide - Straight Razor Place Library
And then following the aggressive one from here Honing - Alternative approaches - Straight Razor Place Library
And then following the conservative method twice.

It really takes time and patience to get this honing lark to work. If it were me I think I'd invest in a 1000grit to use as a bevel setter. also if the blade is really blunt it will need a lot of work to set that bevel just keep going until whatever indicator you're using tells you it's there. When I started out I was convinced that I was doing something wrong as it was taking forever to set a bevel, so I sent it away to be honed by someone else as I didn't want to ruin the razor. Now, having bought some cheap razors off ebay it's given me the opportunity to practice without worrying about the razor too much and I've come to realize that each one will be different. As for not cutting arm hair, did you try it after you'd set the bevel? If it worked then it may be as you've progressed up the the hones you may be using to much pressure again this was my problem.
What hones are you using?

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Originally Posted by Anthony1954

As for not cutting arm hair, did you try it after you'd set the bevel? If it worked then it may be as you've progressed up the the hones you may be using to much pressure again this was my problem.
What hones are you using?

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When I got it, I could run my finger down the edge and not get cut
After doing a few circle strokes on sandpaper, it could cut through arm hair when touching the skin
After doing the pyramid strokes, as stated previously, it could still cut through arm hair, but only when touching the skin.

I'm using a norton 4k/8k.

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Originally Posted by Amenrab

When I got it, I could run my finger down the edge and not get cut
After doing a few circle strokes on sandpaper, it could cut through arm hair when touching the skin
After doing the pyramid strokes, as stated previously, it could still cut through arm hair, but only when touching the skin.

I'm using a norton 4k/8k.

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do you have other razors that can cut you arm hair above the skin? could be that the hair is just not well suited to that test. I seem to have the same problem but i just do a test shave and it seems to have a pretty good shaving edge.

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Originally Posted by UAcowboy

do you have other razors that can cut you arm hair above the skin? could be that the hair is just not well suited to that test. I seem to have the same problem but i just do a test shave and it seems to have a pretty good shaving edge.

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I can cut hair like that with my razors which were professionally honed, but I've never been able to do an HHT test correctly with them.

If it can still cut arm hair at skin level after the 8k - give it a shave test, that's what's important. None of my razors can cut arm hair above the skin - I put that down to my hair because they certainly do a great job on my face.

Circles really de-burs well