Shuobodani type 100s, and other questions.

TL;DR though self taught with the help of SRP, i have all the stones i need, and enough skill to use them.. Then there's curiosity and HAD.

okay, so i have a worn dmt8c(325grit), a few synthetic slip stones (1k, broken 4k, an 8k) some barber hones (swatys and others), and a number of natural stones, charnley forest, cretan, hard ark, rozsutec, some coticules, a bbw, boxed thuringians, an escher, a soft jnat of decent quality and a medium hard jnat of uncertain/dubious quality (what appears to be veins of harder stone, not sure if you'd call it a toxic line or not, and occasional delamination of the layers of the stone).. it is possible that both jnats are better for knives, or prepolishing before a better finisher..

i like natural stones.. i know i could save up and spend my money on a gokumyo<sp?> 20k an get great edges, but it wouldnt be as fun..

i have a Barbers Delight Escher.. great stone, nearly pristine lable, and the original cardboard box that is starting to fall apart.. i recently got a small boxed stone that i think is a black thuringian.. sharp smooth edges, about as good as one could expect from a thuringian i guess(?), though i will have to hone the one razor that produced a velvet squeegee with the BD escher, and see if it can really replace the escher..

TL;DR I have a nice kamisori and want a nice jnat, and likely a set of nagura for it as well and am considering starting with a shuobudani 100, though maybe a should save up for a 'better' stone..

i also have a NOS inuoe tosuke kamisori, and have been wanting a hard fine jnat for that, and for other razors in general..

so.. my questions to you with experience with jnats are:

those of you that have a shuobudani 100, what do you think of it, and how would you compare it to other stones (other shuobu 100s, jnat finishers, or other types of finishers)?

i dont mind the size of the 100s, its just wide enough for my kamisori, and a good size for hand honing.. im used to 150x50 stones.. maybe i would be better off with a good koppa that was a bit wider.. while i do a rolling x stroke on all my western razors, it seems that x strokes are less common, let alone rolling x strokes, in honing kamisori..they seem to be meant to have a truly straight edge.. having a stone that is wide enough to keep the whole blade on the stone and do circles seems to be an advantage..

do you finish on your shuobu 100 with a tomonagura, or just water? do the shuobu 100s autoslurry at all? how hard are they?

while producing a finer and more polished edge, might i loose some of the buttery-ness of the escher simply because the edge is that much more refined? or is it possible to equal or excede both smoothness and keenness of an escher with a jnat?


TL;DR all i really need in a jnat is a finisher, and maybe a tomonagura, but havin a full set of nagura for jnat honing has its appeal..

as far as asano naura go, is the botan really coarse enough for bevel setting work? is it a suitable replacement for a 1k? or is it closer to your typical coticule with slurry for speed? how does it compare? how many people think it is worthwhile to buy a botan nagura?

i've heard it said that some tenjyou and some mejiro are about as fine, some times one being finer than the other or vice-versa.. if they are both similarly fine, is there really an advantage to having both?

koma nagura are supposed to be finer than the other three, and quite fast from what i have read.. however going to a tomonagura many people do not seem to need them to bridge the gap.. how many think it is worthwhile to buy a koma nagura?


I think that's it for now.. thanks for reading, and for any advice/experience you can share..

Well a shuobodani is a great stone. I have the 100 and the full size. Botan slurry does work very fast although for the price of it, you may want to use it sparingly. I use a chosera 1k for my bevels although I have an ikarashi which is in line with my chosera 2k for speed with botan slurry. I also have yae botan which is courser and faster than regular botan. SOme use chu naguras for heavy work but that's not necessary as I have a full spread of chosera. A full nagura set and tomos adds a lot of versatility. I think your Escher edge will feel soft compared to the shubo edge. BUT you can finish with a little more tomo slurry to make the edge softer as well. Naguras have been increasing in price, a full set is what I would recommend and shipped these will be more than the stone. So that's a consideration. I would get them though if you can. I have koma and use it always, it does a lot to refine the edge before the tomo. For a shubodani I have tried many tomos (I have 20 of them) and find that a fine kiita works best although you may find a different result.

First of all, type 100 stone means its size is about 15x5cm. Nothing to do with quality. And shobu stones are awesome, but again, nothing to do with the stone, just the mine. Better to get a wide one, since you'll be using it with slurry.

No, no nagura, or any stone can substitute the 1000 grit stone. It's by far the most important stone, it's strange that you have so many finishers but no bevel setters. Get one as soon as you can! Chocera is one of the best.
The nagura is a fast stone, and useful for prefinishing, and if diluted, with a hard eastern mine stone as base, for finishing. And the grades of nagura don't have a huge difference between them. You don't have to get all the 4 grades. 5 with the chu nagura (I'm honing some swords the last days, chu nagura is a nagura). Get a middle grade one, and you'll be fine.
Kamisori razors are a different thing. They can get incredible edges with mediocre finishers. You don't have to buy the finest stone that exist because you have one, they are just made to get excellent edges with the stone you have, whatever that is. Try it with your Escher, you'll be surprised, they feel great.

Just wanted to add that a hard suita is very versatile with the right tomo and a nagura set. Ive heard some saying you cant finish on a suita but I guess I have to believe my own eyes. I agree about the chosera as was said for the bevel setter. As I said an ikarashi with botan can do that easily. That I can only believe with my own eyes also! LOL. I find that a full nagura set with koma is more versatile as opposed to jumping especially in the early stages of learning naguras. But these all add to what you are spending. A koma if you can find one may set you back $100 just for that, another $100 for the nagura set(botan tenjou and mejiro). And you see how quickly things add up although the naguras will last a very long time. I have tried many different hones but find the jnats extremely versatile and I can get almost anything out of any one of my stones. Meaning a soft edge from a hard stone and a hard edge from a softer stone. Chu nagura I have never used although I will get one one of these days just to see.

I wouldn't suggest naturals for anything less than prefinishers and up. A man made bevel setter definitely. I'm not sure what is a suita, accept that it has little holes, su. Kiita stones are the best of Jnats, but not the best for razors, the most preferred are the asagi.
Getting more grades than one of nagura stones, is like having an Escher, and using different grades of Escher slurry stones. You start with a dark blue, then, blue green, then yellow green. All do the same. They supposed to have a difference, but it's small.
And, I agree with Bill, the most versatile stones around are Jnats, and don't forget the tomo nagura. It's the most useful of the nagura stones.

okay.. great.. most of that i what i expected... i expected slightly more difference between the nagura.. and i was pretty sure that the tomonagura for me would be the most important one.. i also had the idea that finishing on light tomo slurry would give me a softer edge if i want it which is nice to hear.. glad to hear that with type 100s i'm buying a size of stone and thats it, and it could perform a well as any other shuobodani asagi.. i dont have difficulty using my other 150x50 stones with slurry, so i think a shuobo 100 will be okay.. though i wont be using rolling x strokes, so im not sure how different it will be.. i guess i'm off to hone up my tosuke on my escher.. wish me luck.

i do have a bevel setter, a 4"x2" 1k slip stone.. had it for years, either used as is or used as a slurry stone on a harder base stone.. works great, i've taken out some rather large chips out of razors with it.. someday i might invest in the chosera 1k..
i also have a double duck dry barber hone that i two sided, and the coarse side's binder may be breaking down as when i use it with water and pressure it seems to auto slurry and cut pretty quickly... then i have some quick coticule bouts that i use with just water and pressure.. resets a bevel dulled on glass pretty quick, though if i had heavy work to do i'd go to my 1k..
then there are my cretan hones with slurry, also rather fast..
so no, i dont have a fancy 8"x3" bevel setter, up till now i havent had a need for one.. someday...

so, in the end if i decide to save up for a larger shuobudani asagi or other finisher, i can be sure that my shuobo 100 is a quality stone and if i choose to part with it there will be a market for it..

thank you very much..

i know nagura are going up in price, so the next decision is to buy them now just to have them even if i dont need them now, or wait until i need/want them to buy them.. hmm.. that part i think i have to figure out on my own, though opinions are still welcome..

any comments on the jnat with hard veins/inclusions and delamination of layers?

if you buy a stone from a reliable source they will test it for you and indicate at the time of purchase if there are toxic lines or other issues. There are a few sellers that I trust and they all offer a return policy minus shipping which would allow you to exchange the stone. Or buy from classifieds here if theres one and request their return policy if you dont like the stone.

Nays are great but a lot of work, juntas are the ultimate finishers

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dgtirl1971

Nays are great but a lot of work, juntas are the ultimate finishers

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I assume that was autocorrect for "Nats are great but a lot of work, jnats are the ultimate finishers"

i rarely use synthetic stones.. and hopefully the shuobudani 100 i just ordered will put the edge i want on my kamisori and other razors..