Jnat Finishers

Hi guys,

my brother in law, who's a pilot, is going to be in Tokyo again and offered to look out for a nice hone for me. I already own two Nakayama hones, one Maruka and one Iromono, and a small Oozuku.

I'm looking for a very fine finishing stone (who isn't ;) ?), maybe a Okudo or Ohira Suita.

As my brother in law doesn't speak Japanese and doesn't have a clue about J-Nats could you guys help me in giving him some reference what to look for?

Are specific kanji for Oozuku, Okudo and Ohira? Or some kanji that labels a hone to be suitable for kamisori?

And if yes, could you post them here?

Thanks a million

Jörg

Buying stones like you are proposing is risky business IMO. SOmetimes the stamps are real but the stones are fake... I mean they can print money so how easy would it be to make a fake stamp? Better to buy IMO from a reputable dealer who has a reputation and exchange policy. If he brings you a lousy stone then what? You may pay more or less, but peace of mind is worth something. JMHO.

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Originally Posted by jollo74

I'm looking for a very fine finishing stone (who isn't ;) ?), maybe a Okudo or Ohira Suita.

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Never seen a Suita that was considered a razor finisher. :shrug:

I couldn't agree more with Bill. Mislabeling stones for the non-japanese speaking trade is a big business in the big city areas now. Even if your stone really was from that mine and that strata, you could not be sure of the actual layer, hardness, effective fineness, scratchiness, etc. You might even get a stone that is actually very good.. for tools.. but near worthless for razors. Better to buy from a known dealer such as Alex, Maksim, or others recommended here so you'll know it's been properly graded and you'll have a guarantee so you can return or exchange it if needed. You have very little chance of getting a bargain anyway, the shopkeepers can spot a ツーリスト from 1600 meters.

rs,
Tack

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Never seen a Suita that was considered a razor finisher. :shrug:

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I have 3 of them, an ozudu sunashi, an Ozaki suita and a shinden yama renge suita that's harder then my wakasa tomo.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

I have 3 of them, an ozudu sunashi, an Ozaki suita and a shinden yama renge suita that's harder then my wakasa tomo.

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YMMV & all that. The stones you mention are more commonly used for finishing knives & tools but as long as the stone works for you, that's the main thing.

There are Suita layers deeper ie denser than Namito, eg Hon Suita or Shiro Suita but you will pay big bucks for those.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Never seen a Suita that was considered a razor finisher. :shrug:

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Upthread I posted a picture of an Ohira Suita (the gray rectangular one) off of which I have shaved many times.

I believe you 100%. I am surprised that these stones are not included as finishers. My shinden gives me HHt root in or out. And the shave is excellent imo. I was fortunate enough to get one honed by a real ace finished on a suita and it was superb as well. I have 3 suitas and all 3 produce. Maybe I got lucky....

First of all, thanks for your answers :)!

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Originally Posted by bill3152

Buying stones like you are proposing is risky business IMO. SOmetimes the stamps are real but the stones are fake... I mean they can print money so how easy would it be to make a fake stamp? Better to buy IMO from a reputable dealer who has a reputation and exchange policy. If he brings you a lousy stone then what? You may pay more or less, but peace of mind is worth something. JMHO.

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Wow, it seems that I'm more of the trusting kind... I don't think that a big store that sells high end cutlery & tools in central Tokyo would go ahead and fake stamps to rip-off tourists. I wouldn't think this would be worth the effort.

But I agree that there is a risk to pay good money for a natural hone that isn't a suitable finishing stone for razors. That's why I asked for some help with kanji to look for a hone that is intended to be used on razors. I think I have seen something like this around but can't find it.

In the end, I don't care too much from which mine or layer it comes from but I like the thought of having a hone directly imported for me :).

Cheers
Jörg

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Originally Posted by bill3152

I believe you 100%. I am surprised that these stones are not included as finishers. My shinden gives me HHt root in or out. And the shave is excellent imo. I was fortunate enough to get one honed by a real ace finished on a suita and it was superb as well. I have 3 suitas and all 3 produce. Maybe I got lucky....

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I'm not doubting you get good edges & I'm not denigrating any other stones. You can surely get great stones from more than one layer but traditional razor stones are usually selected for their fineness as well as their hardness. That is up to the supplier &/or seller.

HHT &/or a good shave should happen at 8k. Most Awasedo will improve an 8k edge so might be termed 'finishers' but as I hinted before the densest layer will give you those qualities most consistently. Namito & some other layers are deeper than Tenjyo Suita so odds are the consistency will be there for the desired parameters. Hence the more commonly seen Asagi & sometimes Kiita razor hones.

I have missed why hardness is considered to be such a particularly important characteristic for razor sharpening?

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Originally Posted by jgjgjg

I have missed why hardness is considered to be such a particularly important characteristic for razor sharpening?

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Jnats are fine. All of them are very fine. If they are soft, they shred particles easily, and the surface of the stone does not get burnished, ie. the sharp corners of particles on its surface do not get flatter-rounder. This slurry cuts faster, but leaves a less fine edge. Since we are talking about razor honing, the above are not desirable on finishers.

Its just the nature of the beast... While hardness generally means finer with jnats its not always true. There is hardness and there is fineness These are two different things.

A hard stone will generally produce a fine surface. most soft stones break away the surface before the surface can be fully refined. Most hard stones, due to the slow wear produce a fine, refined surface.

If you can find a stone that is super fine and not super hard it can still produce a nice edge providing it doesn't release too much slurry.

+1. BUT there are many stones that can produce great edges that may not be considered for finishing. For example some asagi or kiita stones are rated as finishers when they are actually softer than some suita stones. And why is a coticule considered a finisher then? The edges off my cotis(I have 3) are very soft yet sharp, although they don't approach the sharpness I get from my suitas. Not knocking cotis now, just saying. And hht root in or out from a suita isn't an indication of the blades ability to cut hair then? I know not everyone uses the hht but I do and compare always to what I get off my stones. So I would rate my sharpness off my suita at a 10 out of 10. Is my asagi or ozuku edge sharper? NO imo. And hardness is important as Vasili said regarding release of particles, yet my suitas don't release particles. So its a slippery slope. My dark blue Escher is also not in the range of my suita in terms of sharp either.

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Originally Posted by bill3152

+1. BUT there are many stones that can produce great edges that may not be considered for finishing.
Other factors at play here too, the razor, the honer.
For example some asagi or kiita stones are rated as finishers when they are actually softer than some suita stones.
This is why So from Japan Tool has only sold a handful of Kiita in all his years of supplying stones.
And why is a coticule considered a finisher then? The edges off my cotis(I have 3) are very soft yet sharp, although they don't approach the sharpness I get from my suitas. Not knocking cotis now, just saying.
You've answered your own question Coti edges are generally comfortable.
And hht root in or out from a suita isn't an indication of the blades ability to cut hair then? I know not everyone uses the hht but I do and compare always to what I get off my stones. So I would rate my sharpness off my suita at a 10 out of 10. Is my asagi or ozuku edge sharper? NO imo.
You can pass HHT very early in the progression so it does not make a finisher. It just shows sharpness.
And hardness is important as Vasili said regarding release of particles, yet my suitas don't release particles. So its a slippery slope.
You obviously have exceptionally hard, fine Suita. This, however, does not categorise all Suita as razor hones, hence, as I said before, they are not generally sold as such.
My dark blue Escher is also not in the range of my suita in terms of sharp either.
Bill, I think you're missing the point. Sharp comes long before finishing stage which is more about comfort.

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Thanks, that's great insight!

That has been an interesting discussion so far - thanks :D!

But I'd like to come back to my original question:

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Originally Posted by jollo74

Are specific kanji for Oozuku, Okudo and Ohira? Or some kanji that labels a hone to be suitable for kamisori?

And if yes, could you post them here?

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Any pointers here?

Thanks
Jörg

oozuku 大突
shobu (shobudani) 菖蒲
oohira 大平
I don't remember how you write okudo, and, in the end of the ohira and ozuku you can ad the word yama, means mountain.
There are no labels that specify if a hone is suitable for kamisori. Those stones were quarried and cut for woodworkers, not barbers. And, there is no maruka stamp for those mines.
It is very possible that, if your friend finds a seller, he will see some stones with stamps. Almost none to none of them are worth anything, and are not guarantee for their performance. Stamps are easy to get there.
Basically, you want a hard stone, without inclusions, on the top or sides of the stone. The small cracks are not a problem if they are sealed. I bet I forgot to mention something, but keep those in mind, and good luck.

Razor hones are usually cut approx 5"x3", sometimes smaller. As above stamps often mean nothing & can be added at the whim of the seller.
Choosing a Jnat is not like buying a 30k stone . There are no guarantees other than what the seller gives you.

Indeed!

Just for the record, Okudo 奥殿 (Okudo-no)

Kindest regards

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

Never seen a Suita that was considered a razor finisher. :shrug:

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I got my Ozuku Sunashi Suita from Maksim Enevoldsen. He labled the stone as being a pre-polisher. Not a finisher.

My experience so far with this stone makes me agree with Maksim.

The stone in the photo is a Nakayama Asagi that I recently purchased from Sham which turned out to be a nice finisher.
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