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For some reason, my Norton 4k (the 4k side of a 4k/8k combo stone) feels grainier and rougher than my Chosera 1k even after I've lapped it down considerably.
Is this normal?
When I do my progression of honing from the Chosera 1k to my Norton 4k, it feels like I'm "going down" in grit-level and not up...
You need to lap till you get past the top rough surface, then it will be good to go, may be you need to lap more?
My Norton 4k/8k is 1 inch in thickness. So that means 0.5 inches for the 4k side. I lapped about 1/16 of an inch off already from the 4k side. Do I need to lap down more? If so, by how much? Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
IIRC ~ 1/8" was to be removed, but really you should go till there is no grainy feeling when honing on it. If it does not go away after some lapping then you may have something else going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by spacex
The Norton 4K is about 2.5K on the JIS scale, so it's never going to feel all that much finer than a Chosera 1K.
Is there a chart for the JIS scale and different stones?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecl
Well, it is for me.....normal. The Chosera 1k is a very smooth stone for a 1k. I think it's maybe the binder used in the hone. It seems more dense and maybe a little softer than the Norton 4k and 1k which both give a more gritty feel too me to. Also if you put moderate pressure on the Norton 4k and the Chosera 1k you'll get deeper striation from the 4k Norton than from the 1k Chosera. Whether it's the density/softness of the binder or not :shrug: but that's been my experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by spacex
Absolutely correct. After going off the Naniwa 1k (don't have Chosera), the 4k Norton does feel rough. Normal thing. I love coming to the Norton 4k and feeling it's effectiveness. With the old Norton 1k, notsomuch, but same. Lots has to do with the lapping technique, I think? ( I am a pyramid guy, I must confess! ;) )
Yep! Had to lap almost an 1/8" of my 4k
Really? Mine is old and wearing thin, but has always been good, from day one. I think production went to Mexico a while back.
Anyone notice a difference?
I just lapped down 1/8 of an inch off my Norton 4k side. The surface _did_ become smoother. I have not compared it to Chorsera 1k...but I will post another post in this thread when I do. Drying off my Norton 4k now. My arm is sore.
My Norton 4k side is grainy as well. Frankly I don't care for it. It gets the job done but it is very grainy. When I first got it, Gssixgun suggested that a LOT had to be lapped off of it to remove the gritty texture. I gave it hell with my DMT and took a good 1/8" off of it. Yeah, it's as smooth as it's gonna get until I hit the 8k side. It performs fine but it throws slurry readily and feels grittier than my SS 1k. When the time comes, I'll replace it with a different stone but I think you'll find that it's doing it's job just the same in spite of how it feels.
What I am worried is that even with 1/8 of an inch off, it is still more "grittier" than the Chosera 1k or the SS 1k, in which case, one should start off setting the bevel using the Norton 4k rather than any of the 1ks, and then use the 1k as the second step.Quote:
Originally Posted by OCDshaver
Sigh, right now, going from my Chosera 1k to the Norton 4k just feels like going "downhill" if you know what I mean.
As i recall, my 4k (half) had two different "feels" to the surface even after lapped flat. It had an overly sticky spot/area. That area lapped/honed away eventually and it's consistent all over now, but quite soft and very easy to gouge. Also i noticed that it has worn faster than the rest (of the Nortos), which makes sense. The feel is different, but it works.
Don't focus in on how it feels but how it's cutting. I think you'll see that that in spite of its gritty texture, it not more aggressive in the steel than the 1k. The depth of the scratches will confirm this.
And, that's the way it's going to feel. The solution.....get a Naniwa 3 or 5k, I'd go for 5 and still use your 8k Norton. Or also add the 8k and 12k Naniwa and give up the Nortons. Me, and I did, go to the Naniwas. I think, based on your concern with feel the Naniwa's will be a welcome addition. But, the Nortons are a solid performer, Just different.Quote:
Originally Posted by spacex
Regards,
Howard :)
What does the stria look like? If the stria is even and the edge straight, the stone is fine.
Norton’s do feel grittier compared to the Choseras.
But they work just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Buy yourself a Norton 1k and the problem will go away! I assure you the 1k will feel "grainier." The point simply is the different brands of hones feel different. I have an older US made Norton 4k and a newer mexican made 4k and they both work fine. Under the microscope they look different. I did a post about it years ago. Critically though, they work the same.
I think it's pointless to lap away a significant amount of a hone just because you don't like the way it feels. The original purpose of that lapping was to remove occasional aberrant bits of grit that hung up the blade and caused sctatches. You can hear Lynn hitting one on his DVD. The entire hone was not bad but there was a one piece of grit that needed to be lapped away.
Komitadjie's chart on Knifeforums.com might be worth a look:Quote:
Originally Posted by spacex
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9324/gcreve.png
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/9324/gcreve.png
The Grand Unified Grit Chart - - Powered by FusionBB
I go from a Chosera 1K to a 4/8K Norton. I have a full Norton, Chosera and Super Stone progressions, but prefer the performance of the Norton 4/8K and the speed of the hones. I pre- finish on a 12k super stone then Naturals or film.
It is grittier, but it’s the performance I prefer of the Norton 4/8K. I never did remove much of my stones when I first lapped them years ago.
I just sent my Norton 4k/8k back for a replacement. Talked to both Woodcraft and the Norton customer service engineer about it. When I told the Norton rep that I had lapped more than half the stone thickness away and still the stone felt rougher than my Norton 220 and dulled every razor it touched he told me that the stone was obviously defective and to send it back for a replacement. the new one should be delivered today. I'll report back after I lap it. This time, I won't spend four hours lapping, I just ask for a refund and buy different 4k and 8k stones.
I found the old thread with the photos.
Now, I will reiterate what I wrote there. My two Norton 4k hones were not components of the nearly ubiquitous Norton 4k/8k combination hone. (Why would I buy two half hones glued together when I can buy two whole hones separately?) The older 4k component apparently used to be made in Italy and the newer one is made in Mexico. MY 4k hones were made in the US and Mexico so that is what I am comparing.
I will play junior poser moderator here and ask that any discussion about what you read in that thread be posted here rather than resurrecting a long dead thread and splitting the conversation between that one and this one. If a moderator disagrees, go ahead and strike off this paragraph.
The first stone I got had its 4k side produced in Italy.
The second stone also had it's 4k side produced in Italy. Lapped on glass/Norton 220 WD for 1 1/2 hours, still much rougher than Norton 220. Tried setting bevel on practice razor using first a Norton 1k, following Lynn Abrams bevel setting video. Then tried continuation on the new Norton 4k side. Dulled the razor, didn't sharpen at all. Would shave arm hair after the 1k stone, would not after 4k. Stone came from Amazon and I have concluded that they got a bad batch. Returned Norton to Amazon and ordered a set of Naniwa stones from SRD.Quote:
Originally Posted by DryFly
The reason you did not have to lap it down much, could it be because your Norton 4k/8k was not made in Mexico?Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Also, how is your experience of going from the Chosera 1k to 4k/8k Norton?
If there are tiny air pockets/valleys/dips on the surface of the Norton 4k, wouldn't it cause small chips on the edge of the blade as you are honing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
No. They are holes, not bumps. Consider them as negative honing spaces.
After sharpening several knives on my Chosera 1k and Norton 4k, I know realize that Norton 4k, despite being grainier in feel, is indeed a higher-grit stone than the Chosera.
Thanks for everyone's input and re-assurance!
You seem to have got your memory back, Stefan! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Humorously,
Neil
I just came across this thread this morning, and back in early March I had the same problem. My 4k/8k Norton had a rough spot on the 4k side. I lapped that son of a gun 50% of it's thickness and still could not remove the course spot. IT too was made in Mexico. One quick call to Amazon and I had an entire new set at my door just 14hrs later! The new set lapped up nicely after about 1/16th of an inch taken off.
Spacex
I have a 1K Norton, Chosera, Super Stone, King, a no name 1k Diamond plate and a DMT 1200. They all do the same thing and leave very similar edge, except the diamonds that cut a bit more aggressive edge that can lead to micro chipping.
I like the diamonds for re-shaping an edge post bread-knifing for chip removal, but do not bring the bevels to meeting. I leave a bit of flat edge and do the final setting with the Chosera.
I prefer the Chosera 1K for the feel on the stone, but the performance and quality of the bevel is the same on most synthetics. The progression from the 1K to a 3, 4 or 5 K is a fine progression and really any stone in that grit range will work, then an 8-12k. The closer the progression, the less time it takes on each stone.
Really almost any stone or abrasive, from bevel setting and middle grit polishing does not matter as far as final performance; with the exception that they determine how much time you will spend on each progression to remove stria from the previous stone. We can hone a razor on anything from Natural stones, sandpaper to abrasive pastes as long as a progression is used and/or enough time. You could set a bevel with a 12K, it would take some time, but you could not properly finish on a 1K.
I recently have been using a Chosera 1K, Norton 4/8K, Super stone 12K, 1um film and strop on Chrome Oxide and CBN .50 and .125. Yup… all over the map.
If using any progression to properly set and polish a bevel and edge as smooth as possible, the only one that matters is the finisher and/or technique… the driver.