"Super" Stone Fail!

I know many of us use the Naniwa Super Stones, and to be quite honest, up until today I have been very pleased. Very pleased. They are great stones. But today my faith has been shaken.

I bought the combo 3K/8K (3/8) stone to save some space in my progression... but I am thinking that might have been a really bad call.

I don't "soak" my stones for very long. Generally speaking, I place my 3/8 in the sink while I work with my 1K. Then place my 10K in the sink when I begin using my 8K etc., etc. So the max it's in the sink is 5 to ten minutes (I only hone one razor at a time).

Today however, I saw a stream of bubbles coming out from the seams when I put it in the sink. I immediately took it out, but didn't think too much more about it until I began working with it. When I looked closer, I noted that the bonding agent was disintegrating and leaving a bit of an opening where the glue once was. No big deal really.

I did my work and when I was done cleaned it off with my lapping stone and placed it on my "drying" rack to let it dry with all the others.

It was when I was putting them away that I noted I had a problem. Not only was the glue disintegrating, the two bonded stones were pulling away from each other!! Massive fail!

Here have a look:

Attachment 160891
Bonds going.

Attachment 160892
Massive warping!


I have never heard of this happening before!? I am going to contact the company who sold it to me with a link to this thread to see if they have an in with Naniwa - hopefully they can return it for a refund because flattening this out, assuming it doesn't warp even more, is going to take quite a few hones out of its life.

What a disappointment... :( :(

I think if you soak superstones they warp. I usually just splash and go without trouble. Sorry about your stone.

Michael

I thought you weren't susposed to soak these? Just spray with water and go?
I am sure some hone guru will be along shortly to answer...

I think the issue is two-fold.

First, you may have been soaking it for too long. That one is kind of obvious in hindsight given what happened.

Second, the SuperStones can swell in weird ways even if they are only soaked for brief periods. I started a thread about this a few years ago. If you look at the photos, you will see that the swelling is not uniform along the entire length of the hone. When you have variable swelling in one hone glued to another hone that is also experiencing variable swelling there is going to be some tension between them. I suspect this is what happened.

I think the only prevention for this is to keep soaking times to a minimum. Of course that doesn't help in your case. If they were mine, and I could not get them replaced, I would try to finish the job and get them separated completely with more soaking and dental floss.

Yeah, I too just spray and go on my Nani 12k. Does that apply to the lower grits too.?

Hate to see that happen but I do believe Naniwa Super Stones should not be soaked like a Norton. All I do is spray some water on mine before use.

Bob

I use choseras and suehiros and NEVER soak them just spray and hone. The soaking as was said causes them to swell. If you lap them then soak then you have a warped stone.

Its funny - since this happened, I have read just about every bit of litterateur out there from 4 stores that sell them. They all say they don't need to be soaked, but none say not to soak em!

The box says nothing :(!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chevhead

I thought you weren't susposed to soak these? Just spray with water and go?
I am sure some hone guru will be along shortly to answer...

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Your not.

Dave, I'm sorry dude.

I used to "soak" them for literally under 2 minutes, but then stopped after being advised.

So sorry, man. I have that same combo and it filled the regimen quite nicely. :cry:

It seems that the two stone are better off separated than together. At least they split along the seam between them instead of cracking one half or the other into pieces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I think the issue is two-fold.

First, you may have been soaking it for too long. That one is kind of obvious in hindsight given what happened.

Second, the SuperStones can swell in weird ways even if they are only soaked for brief periods. I started a thread about this a few years ago. If you look at the photos, you will see that the swelling is not uniform along the entire length of the hone. When you have variable swelling in one hone glued to another hone that is also experiencing variable swelling there is going to be some tension between them. I suspect this is what happened.

I think the only prevention for this is to keep soaking times to a minimum. Of course that doesn't help in your case. If they were mine, and I could not get them replaced, I would try to finish the job and get them separated completely with more soaking and dental floss.

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Great thread link - thanks! Though I think I am more confused now than ever.

I have to admit that if Glen soaks his for ten minutes... You would think mine would be fine. It must have something to do with the fact that mine is a dual bonded stone. Sigh. I guess it doesn't help that I have been honing like a champ here lately.

Perhaps the separating of the two stones idea is a good one, though I am not too excited to do that, it might just have to be done. But I don't know if I should or shouldn't place em in water for a bit now or not. I just can't get past that soaking works for Glen, a guy who hones like a champ lol, but no one else.

Guess I'll sleep on it but thanks for that link - and thanks to everyone for their input!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by earcutter

I have to admit that if Glen soaks his for ten minutes... You would think mine would be fine.

I just can't get past that soaking works for Glen, a guy who hones like a champ lol, but no one else.

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That's where I got the idea about the stone soak, but I made sure, with the exception of one occasion where I left it in 5 minutes or so on accident, that I kept the soap to a minute or two. Maybe time for a bubble text commentary on that vid explaining YMMV or something like that...

However, now I don't soak them at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by earcutter

It must have something to do with the fact that mine is a dual bonded stone.

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I really do think that is the issue. What you saw in that other thread was evidence of variable swelling along the length of the hone. Glue together two hones that swell differently and something's got to give. As Mike pointed out, it's lucky they did not crack.

I'm with Ron and Mike Blue. There is deformation due to soaking resulting in internal stresses and you're lucky that the glue is weaker than the hone, otherwise it could crack instead of the two pieces separating.
I don't know if Glen's hones are bonded dual grits, mine aren't, and their holders are soft plastic that is easy to deform if there is deformation from the hone. And they aren't glued to the holder across the whole plane.

So, if you can't get it replaced I'd split it and then if you're a little bit handy put the two pieces on holders you can fashion out - basically make a rectangular frame from cheap wood sticks. Normally you'd want a stone epoxied to a flat surface that doesn't deform, but in this case the hone is resin that deforms under water and if preventing the deformation over a large surface results in mechanical stress.

Gotta be either the two stones together, even though I haven't read about another problem like this, or perhaps just perhaps the Mix of the Epoxy or Glue was wrong on yours could just be a oddball fail :shrug: I remember a thread about somebody popping them off the bases because they thought it was the bases that were causing the problems I haven't ever thought that, since the hones barely touch the bases on the inside...

but

They do swell, I do soak them, and have soaked them for almost 5 years now, about 10 minutes or so I really don't track it, I have also abused them by forgetting them in the tub for hours.. Mine are the ones on the plastic base just like Utopian shows in that old thread, and they will do just like his show in that thread if you don't let them stabilize...
Once they stabilize they are good to go...


Was just re-reading that old thread and it reminded me that the Henckels hone which Naniwa made came in a 3/8 Superstone combo and had a plexisheet in between the two hones and they were glued to that.. I used that the same way for a couple of years too without an issue... they would also swell unevenly until they stabilized

Attachment 160950

Just giving you some thoughts here David

I go through a few of these stones every year so they get a pretty good workout here.

The one thing I really continue to try to stress to people is to NOT to soak them. This is a resin based stone and it is soft and soaking them is not recommended even from the manufacturer. I just spray water on them or run the faucet over them for a second or two a few times until they quit drinking and the water starts to pool on the top of the stone. I have never had any trouble with swelling doing this. They clean up with the DMT or Atoma or GDLP without problems and they remain one of the most reliable and consistent hones I use and I use them almost every day.

Have fun.

Sorry to hear about the stone, it would become very clear to you not to soak the stone if you had read the original instruction.
Attachment 160976

Oh well of course. That clears it right up for me, thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I go through a few of these stones every year so they get a pretty good workout here.

The one thing I really continue to try to stress to people is to NOT to soak them. This is a resin based stone and it is soft and soaking them is not recommended even from the manufacturer. I just spray water on them or run the faucet over them for a second or two a few times until they quit drinking and the water starts to pool on the top of the stone. I have never had any trouble with swelling doing this. They clean up with the DMT or Atoma or GDLP without problems and they remain one of the most reliable and consistent hones I use and I use them almost every day.

Have fun.

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I still got the variable swelling that I showed in the photos in the linked thread by only spraying them, which was my method at the time I took the photos. Your hones must like you better because I don't know what I was doing differently from your prep. They eventually stopped doing it but I didn't really change anything.

YMMV

:beer1:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I still got the variable swelling that I showed in the photos in the linked thread by only spraying them, which was my method at the time I took the photos. Your hones must like you better because I don't know what I was doing differently from your prep. They eventually stopped doing it but I didn't really change anything.

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I've had a similar issue with my King 1K/6K combo. I ended up with two cracks in the 6K side. I believe the issue was soaking and drying the whole stone, I can't get away from soaking the 1K but just putting enough water in a dish to soak the 1K side with the 6K sitting above the water line has remedied the issue for me.

[QUOTE=Martin103;1314824]Sorry to hear about the stone, it would become very clear to you not to soak the stone if you had read the original instruction.
Attachment 160976[/QUOTE

LOL - well the great news is, I have friends who just so happen to be fluent in Japanese!! I am going to copy that and ask one of them to translate it for me.

If he takes it seriously and does a good job of it rather than... well I don't know, then I'll post the translation here!

Thanks! That's awesome.

Just to follow up:

The instructions are being translated as we speak and the vendor got back to me. Here's the outcome:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ml#post1315404

Quote:

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Originally Posted by earcutter

Just to follow up:

The instructions are being translated as we speak and the vendor got back to me. Here's the outcome:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...ml#post1315404

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Fabulous. Go read the above thread all.

:y

I've had a Norton 4k/8k split at the seam, I lapped both inner surfaces and glued it back together with marine epoxy. So far so good