Does stone progression, or rather stone type naniwa, coticule, Norton make a difference in how long the shaveable edge lasts or is it purely the razor material that would determine how many shaves you get between honings?
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Does stone progression, or rather stone type naniwa, coticule, Norton make a difference in how long the shaveable edge lasts or is it purely the razor material that would determine how many shaves you get between honings?
good question, I wood think it's only dependent on the steel but I did see the claim of longer lasting edges on labels of old hones but theb again, almost al old hones claimed to be the world's best hone on their label :thinking:
It is going to depend on the hardness of the steel, the quality of the hone job, your stropping abilities, toughness of your beard and shaving technique.
IMO, partly steel, but, I find more often that shaving technique and stropping technique directly coorelate to edge keeness.
There are some razors(mentioned in the Avoid List on the wiki) that steel quality is THE singular reason for short life of a keen edge(*if* keen edge can even be attained).
Regards,
Siguy
I agree with this. A guy on YouTube suggests that your razor could hold an edge indefinitely if you stropped with .10 micron paste about 10 times after every shave. I tried that with a Dovo Best Quality blade but dulled it after 2-3 shaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Splashone
As said from Bram, many vintage hones mention something about the "long lasting edges" they give, and from people I have talked to about this, some claim that stones offer the longest lasting edges, where, edges from paste stropping, lapping film and anything else last less than the one from stones.
It's a bit difficult question to answer.
The edge on razors when finished on stones, is flat, V shaped no matter how hollow the razor is.
The edge when finished on pastes lapping film or anything else, on a softer base (like leather), should be convex, as even the touch of the razor deforms the flatness of the surface, the moment they come in contact no matter its thickness. Some of this could be beneficial, before the edge starts to degrade.
On other cutting instruments, the convex edge lasts much longer than a V shaped one. Yet, I haven't seen any claims that pasted stropping instead of honing makes an edge last longer.
I also think that the quality of the steel, and the tempering process are the most important factors. And for testing how long an edge lasts on shaves, there are far too many variables.
But I don't think between stones of similar grit that there will be a significant difference.
I think the steel is the main factor however your shave technique and honing-stropping technique play important roles too. I don't think any particular hone will provide a longer lasting edge simply because of it's honing qualities.
However it's easy to test. Take two identical razors with identical physical qualities and hone them on different hones of equal grit and use them in exactly the same fashion with the precise same parameters and you will know.
Of course that is impossible to do.
I think I get a longer lasting edge from a barber hone than from finishing on cro-ox paste; based on using basically the same 2 razors for several years. I also think that stropping technique might easily make a bigger difference.
I agree with thebigspendur, Steel and technique foremost.
I would like to make a note, the angle of the finished bevel paired with the type of steel will have an impact on it.
I know most has been said but I would think bevel angle might alter the longevity of the edge as well as the steel and the coarsness/density of the hair, and the ability of the user to maintain the edge. Softer steel is easier to hone vs. Stainless which is very hard material but holds a great edge once shave ready. The tip of the edge of a bevel is probably tapered down to only a few atoms thick anyways if you could view it under a powerful enough microscope, the hairs themselves obviously will flex the edge in spots and maintenance is key to keeping them aligned.
I may be completely wrong but would a steeper angle produce a longer lasting edge over a shallower angle, hypothetically? (All things being as near to equal as possible)Quote:
Originally Posted by pfries
If I have garnered the information from looking at custom knives correctly there is a balance with steel type and angle for both taking and holding the edge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Christel
Razors fall into a narrower breadth of angles but I would imagine it still plays a role.
If a steeper angle was all it took they would have eventually built them that way, I think the angle needs to be shallow to facilitate cutting the hairs effectively.
Again this is only my best semi educated guess and I hope to hear from some of our blade smiths with some input.
I think steel quality and the hardening process are the differences in the edge holding ability of razors. Having said that, I have observed that a burnished edge ( an edge that is very sharp and then polished a lot ) is more durable. I have had luck burnishing an edge with a translucent Arkansas, a Zulu grey, or a very fine Jnat using soapy water as a lubricant. It definitely increases the polish and keenness of the edge.
you're right, there is a tradeoff here between a realy keen edge using a narow angle which is easily damaged and a wider angle I remember reading somewhere that for SRs the ideal angle is ~17 degrees, and most kitchen knives have an angle between 30 and 40 degrees for just this reasonQuote:
Originally Posted by Christel
I would say 100% down to the steel, as we often hear claims of old Iwasaki razors giving up over a 1000 shaves just with stropping before they need honing, after saying this those Iwasaki razors have a Rockwell of around 67 which would be way beyond any conventional modern razor, and It's not that hard to believe just look how sharp this Rockstead knife remains even after chopping into a bamboo I tell you now don't try this with your Sebenza or Spyderco as it will be blunt almost instantly. I think the Rockstead also as about the same Rockwell hardness as the Iwasaki razor.
According to Mr. Kousuke Iwasaki record, one of barbers had shaved 1032 people of beards without honing using just a leather strop when it became little bit dull. Many of other experienced barbers have also shaved over 900 people without honing.
http://youtu.be/zIgi1XRSt5Q
http://youtu.be/CC-4zEYP1wA
I would kmagine that the most important thing is the steel, maybe 90% or more assuming that blade geometry, hardening, stress relieving, tempering and bevel formation are all perfect.
The next most important factors would be correct stropping and storage, in my opinion.
After that the frequency of use and the toughness of the wiskers.
But without doubt the last hone will play a part. Hones leave a progressively finer, and thus more attenuated and weaker edge past, say, 8k. At 16k, 20k and 30k you are giving the razor a very, very fine edge that is more susceptible to bending and deflection damage by the whiskers during shaving.
I think that the hones importance in edge longevity is undeniable. What is debatable is how much importance it plays in longevity - not much, in my opinion, other factors have far more importance.
As for word of mouth stories about fabled steels of yore, I am unconvinced. If I cant see it, hold it, experience it, if no one else can try it and it exists only in the minds of old timers and half mystical textbooks then in all probability it never existed.
Regards,
Neil