I'm struggerling to understand what's going on in that picture....... Has that razor had the matrix treatment?......remember there is no razor!
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I'm struggerling to understand what's going on in that picture....... Has that razor had the matrix treatment?......remember there is no razor!
here the bevel imperfection, that one has nothing to do with the spine or the bevel it is a thin spot in the grind :) where the wheel/belt dug slightly deeper
http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/g...psbd42c1a8.jpg
Just based on my own learning experiences, my early problems were too much pressure and not enough time working the slurry down on the jNats. This doesn't mean you have the same problem, but trying some substantially different techniques may help you identify if technique is an issue.
When you get to the JNats, try a very thin slurry raised with little pressure. You should not be able to feel any particles with a fingertip or the razor. Reduce the pressure by at least a half and double your stroke count, reducing pressure to near zero at the end - the stage when you are basically polishing. I start on the JNats with finger pressure, about what you'd use if you were wiping a surface with a fingertip to see if it were dusty. I typically use 40 circle ellipse at finger pressure, then reduce pressure through 40 more single sided strokes. Numbers are arbitrary in a given situation of course, but you should feel the slurry break at about 20-30 in the ellipse stage. It will start feeling very smooth. Keep the slurry wet.
Cheers, Steve
Thanks , yes Hart Steel , I did use 2 tapes for a while because I noticed the bevel getting wider and wider but recently went back to the single tape method , time to double up again..
Is there any way to take the wave out? or any point to take it out.
I have 2 not a replica blades , one is saved for best and the other is for my honing practice.
The one which has seen me learn to hone with is super wavy , so im thinking I must have done that with uneven pressures ..
I was told that my stone must have a lot of pre polishing before it will perform.
I bought a cheap Arkansas stone which just scratched my naturals .
I've used lots of Tomos also but still no mirror reflection shiny surface going on.
When using the tomos to achieve a shine should it be with little pressure?
Either way you guys have given my lots of things to try so its just a process of elimination .
I cant thank you all enough.
I lap my stones up to coti. Although many I know stop
at 600 grit. What Im getting out of the scope pictures are some bevel wrecking particles. If you havent already, round a corner of the tomo and use that gently to raise some slurry. It may take some time to do this depending on how hard the tomo is as compared to the base stone. Easy pressure and perhaps soaking the tomo a few minutes may let it happen easier. If you are using the tomo flat, a groove or 2 may reduce the stiction or suction between the 2 surfaces.
I was recently made aware of the soft approach to slurry making.
Going through my slurry stones I have found that the Nakayama Nagura releases the smallest particles , or at least that's what my eyes are telling me.
It is also the hardest to raise a slurry with, but patients and no pressure eventually does the job..
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I use a pre-polisher called Ozuku Sunashi Suita prior to the Nakayama Mariuchi Asagi and have no problem with chipping. You can also try the Tim Zowada method of adding 1 layer of tape for the last 5 or so finish strokes. This also works for me.
There are many ways to do this. The method your using is one of them. Nagura sets can take you from bevel setter on up to finisher on one stone. You can also get prepolishing stones to use as a progression of jnats. You can also use diamond plate slurry as well. And many other ways. I think using the stone as you are for the moment is a good idea. Get the slurry down, before you throw anything into the mix. If your stone is super fine as was said, your progression up to 16k has that covered IMO. Keep it simple for now, there will be lots more after you get this finisher figured out.
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Perhaps it is time to employ the Tim Zowada finish method.
Razor Maintenance http://www.tzknives.com/razorcare.html
Ohhhhhhhh I see it now its looking down the blade, my eyes saw it as the blade bent back on itself dohhhhh
Attachment 170527
JOB, also a litle advice on a different part. I recently found my self wondering why my edges were getting less confortable while I hadn't changed anything in my method (I bevel set, use a coti, dilute slurry, plain water and then strop) and gotten 10+ blades ~shave ready, then I took one up honed a long time ago and it was way smoother then anything I could do at the moment.
I finally realized that I probably hadn't cleaned my blades after honing before stropping and that there were probably a lot of garnet running around on my strop.
after I cleaned my strop and redressed it the universe was good again :angel:
I have some more news.
I know I posted a pic of a microchip that occurred that day, but what I was referring to as microchipping and a weak edge I now know it as a "Burr" or "Foil Edge" .
As I hone I not only use the microscope, I use my eyes.
The microscope I use to make sure I get to the edge with my scratches and to check there is no microchipping .
My eyes I use to make sure there is no foil edge catching the light.
My edges are fine until ive finished and hit the linen strop.
I do 50 laps on the linen and a wire edge appears just partially hear n there .
So I'm trying to figure out if its occurring because of over honing during the bevel setting or over polishing .
Im quietly confident its not from too much pressure because I used to apply too much pressure but learnt to control myself :)
I now think the problem occurs form the shape or low profile of Hart Steel blades as "Gissixgun" mentioned .
Also reading this thread My Theory on Overhoning Straight Razors – Part 1 | Jende Industries Blog
So 3 layers of tape and it should all be good , otherwise I'm thinking to use less 4k Shapton than I have been after the 1k... I mean 1k sets the bevel so the 4k I could just do laps and no circles.. I think the 3 layers of tape should work though ...
Either way ive learnt a hell of a lot from this thread.. thanks all..
IMO the photo showed a chip from a stone particle that was too large. Probably from aggressive tomo slurry raising. If you have 3 layers of tape on and the particle was there, you would have the same chip. Wire edge is something else completely from what the photo was showing. IMO too many strokes on the 4k, will not result in a wire edge after progressing to the 8k, then 16 then nakayama. Any one of those stones is capable of removing the foil or wire by itself.
I was just thinking about this thread, Honing a Hart right now, I might head to a Nakayama finish just to see what happens :)
Try another linen strop, perhaps your strop has something on it, or too much pressure.
I suppose its worth a try, it is a new strop, a Kanayama 90000 .
I never checked the edge after final stropping before, just tested how it pops mid level arm hair.
Saying that though, I never have issues with my edges to make me check after stropping previously .
I've added too many variables at once , a new stone and a new strop.
Maybe, I'm just creating super delicate edges that just can't handle linen.
The problem is that I'm working and can't experiment until the weekend :(
I feel like quitting my job..
Honing is more important :/
A couple of things I can think of:
1) Can you shave arm hair at skin level off the 1k stone? If not, your bevel isnt set correctly.
2) Can you feel the razor starting to cut hair off the 4k stone floating about 1mm above the skin? Thats usually my benchmark for being done on that stone.
3) Try doing just 10 light pressure laps on the 8k, and then test shave. If all is well at that point then do 10 light pressure laps on the 16k.
4) Try your J-Nat without slurry - I've had a few of them and some play well with slurry, some dont. Generally those made out of softer clay type stone tend to work better with slurry and the harder more granite like stones tend to prefer no slurry.
My Maruichi worked with slurry and I did 15 strokes with a light slurry, then 15 with just water. My Asagi is just 30 with water, no slurry at all. That might sound a lot of strokes, but I'm using basically enough pressure to keep the blade flat on the stone, thats it.
And then when you strop, just try doing 30 linen and 60 leather and see how that comes out.
Good luck and keep us posted!
So I was thinking of your thread as I was honing a Hart
Some things that came to mind
The Fragile edge is a classic overhoning symptom so the question is WHY ????
1. Excessive pressure while honing
2. Way to many laps
3. Using to many stones
4 Wrong geometry
5. Bad steel
6 Lifting the spine while stropping or excessive pressure
Looking at your case in specific, the two easiest to control
Eliminate the 16k from the system and go to the J-nat after the 8k which Stubear also gave a great recommendation in his post above with #3 see how well it shaves at the 8k level
Add 2 layers of tape and do your finishing routine right now, and see if the edge holds
But you are going to have to eliminate the possibilities one at a time until you solve the issue, changing multiple things in each session just gets frustrating :(
ps: no issues with honing this Hart through the Nakayama
Using 2 layers of 3M 700 tape
Set new bevel on Chosera 1k using light slurry, this was simple light bevel set, not any heavy grinding
moved to Chosera 5k using light slurry dilute to clear about 20 laps
moved to Chosera 10k and again light slurry dilute to clear about 20 laps
moved to Nakayama medium slurry no dilution continued working until dry, using combination of Pigtails and X strokes, getting lighter and lighter until dry,,, razor has a sweet haze finish now.. while dry, I then did about 15 super light laps with just enough pressure to keep control of the edge on the stone, the laps are so light that the dry powdered slurry does NOT lift off the stone.. Very edge of bevel changes to mirror...
Strop on Linen/Leather test shave...
Above just for reference it is not a honing recommendation
Last night I decided to do a hone and figure out whats going on.
This time I used 3 layers of tape.
Finished the hone and went to my old broken in linen strop .
There was some edge break up , just a little but still about 2 tiny points caught the light.
Then I hit my new Kanayama linen strop and the edge degraded even more.
So this edge was stronger with 3 layers but still failing and effected more by the new unbroken in Kanayama strop.
I did some thinking... My edges weren't like this before, my brother used to text me that hed just had the best shave of his life off my honing and I was over the moon with my shaving results.
Then I think I figured it out.
When I first started honing , I tried to copy the Lynn Abrahams Shapton guide but the edges weren't sharp enough. So I started doing more circles and laps but over time I was decreasing my circles and laps , trying to do exactly what Lynn shows in his video.
Eventually I decreased my circles,laps,pressure, to a point where I was getting dull edges.
I then realised and this was about 2 months ago, that Lynn uses a shave ready blade in his videos ,where as I use a dull edge that's been dragged on the stone before honing.
So I thought I was justified in doing near enough double what Lynn does in his videos (with the 1k and 4k) to achieve a nice edge, which has lead me here.
My next test will be a hone doing the minimal actions and see what happens.
Hopefully I can fit a session in tonight ...
I came home from work today and went straight to honing.
This time I under honed the blade, it was sharp but just not very sharp.
I did 50 on the linen and broke up the edge.
The problem was that I strop very fast and on the linen i un knowingly add a touch of violence.
So I re honed the blade still not as much as I normally would. I left out the 16k did some on the shobu then onto the nakayama with minimum slurry ,worked it dry and did 15 laps on the dry like gssixgun did.
I then gave it 60 laps on the leather and had a shower then shaved.
I was expecting a blunt shave.
After the first stroke I was blown away, it didn't feel sharp at all but took all the hair with ease , I followed with an against the grain pass, wow , perfect. (I also tried my new "GEO F TRUMPER" shaving cream ,very nice , could challenge "Truefit, Ultimate comfort")
After a perfect shave I took the blade to the linen ,did 50 and bingo, broke the edge up.
I could just strop slowly on linen but I will never use linen again.
I might just use the suede then the leather but linen is a no no for me..
See! I knew it wasn't my honing :)
I'm just happy to move forward..
Thank you guys for teaching me a load of new tricks and all your input...
I think you need a real linen before you decide to never use linen again. The vintage linens that I have step an edge up on a routine (weekly use) basis better than anything else I've ever used, and allow me to go almost indefinitely between honings without losing any edge keenness. When I used leather only, I could only go for about 3 weeks before I noticed a drop in keenness on a blade. I've gone 6 months using the linen weekly and only honed that razor because someone sent me a stone to test.
Linen used well is one of the best things to have to maintain a razor, but it has to be a good linen. bad linens and linen substitutes will damage the edge of a razor.
This is an interesting thread. When i started honing razors using fine JNats over a year ago, there was some advice floating around to go from stone to leather. I've also noted that my Herald flax linen component seems to knock the off-the-stone HHT down a bit. I'm currently trying Belgian flax linen from an artist's supply, and the results are that it seems to produce a keener but more exfoliating edge than say the Kanoyama canvas.
So could it be that "back in the day" when people used coarser barber hones, slates, coticules of unknown virtue (with technique of unknown virtue), and so on, that linen was a good idea but that it is less a good idea with modern uber-fine hones like the Shapton 30k/Suehiro 20k, ultra fine JNats, and the finest pastes?
Any comments about the relative value of linen with ultra fine hones?
Cheers, Steve
The only linens I've used that I like are the vintage linens in good clean (unused is nice) condition and that have a mark on them like "silk finish" and have something on them. But what's on them is not abrasive, it's some kind of mix of stuff that's more like a coating.
They bring up the sharpness of everything I've put on them, and leave a very bright edge. Most of the other things I've tried, like cotton felt, etc, I always felt like I was making a lateral move at best with it, some of it (and some not so great leather that wasn't broken in) did knock off some of the keenness. The easiest solution to me, unless I think stuff like that has a chance of breaking in, is to not use it.
When the goods are quality, you don't have to fight them or find secrets to get them to work. That's the mark of ...well, quality goods.
When I go from a silk finish linen to testing someones' stone, almost without question, a hone on any natural stone will bring the edge sharpness down some. That includes honing on vintage japanese barber hones. Over a period of a couple of weeks, use of the linen will bring the edge back up (I use it once a week) and then it will just sort of stay wherever that is.