BBW as a one-hone?

Could a BBW be used as a "one-hone" solution to maintaining a blade? Or, more precisely, as a one/only hone for life (with slurry stone)?


Perhaps I've read too much into the Coticles.be article comparing results between BBW, Coticle and Coticle/BBW stones on straight razors but I want to put it out there. Yet many websites list it as a 4000-grit equivalent stone - as though they intentionally want to sway opinion away from it.
Link to study: http://coticule.be/heritage.html?fil.../BBW-study.pdf or http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/1452.html

From all that I've read elsewhere: it's functionally similar composition as coticle through slower due to the lower garnet content. I would assume that make it easier for new users from causing damage but, based on the results, could still equal the final output of more expensive stones.

Are there users that use a BBW to refresh their blades?

The issue with any "One Hone System" is the bevel set, after that there are very few that can't be used

Keeping in mind that Natural Stones by their very nature are quite variable..

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

The issue with any "One Hone System" is the bevel set, after that there are very few that can't be used

Keeping in mind that Natural Stones by their very nature are quite variable..

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Intent is to maintain a blade.

assuming a bevel is already present.

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Intent is to maintain a blade.

assuming a bevel is already present.

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Here is my opinion for exactly what you just posted...

Without any doubt in my mind at all, I have absolute confidence that I can get a Sharper, Smoother, more Comfortable shaving edge off of a Norton 8k, Naniwa 8k, 10k or 12k, a Shapton 8k, PHIG, WHIG, or even most Barber's hones (might be forgetting some too) for the same price as an 8x3 BBW

I own a BBW and a dang good one at that, but it just isn't a stand out hone, not when there are so many better ones available at the same price point..


That is JMHO, but as I have often said "Natural stones are a romance, synthetics are an exact science, so make sure you have the time and patience to kindle the love affair"

G/L

If I really didn't like somebody I might gift them a BBW to maintain their razor ......... :p

I agree exactly with glen. If you're maintaining a razor with leather and linen (and not a bunch of fast abrasives on a strop), then the maintenance of a razor is extremely little. It would be like light slurry on a phig and then clear every few weeks to every few months, depending on how good your linen and leather are. You'd want to pick a stone that does really well at maintenance, not one that does just OK or not well at all.

the only stones that I have ever seen that will set a bevel and give you a decent shave are washitas, and at that only the harder finer ones. Even at that, they set a bevel better when they're scuffed, and they do fine work a lot better when they're not. No razor gets them from scuffed to fine in one razor, so you have a dilemma.

Carvers and woodworkers don't even like the BBW for the most part, it isn't fine enough for its cutting speed. There may be a few who use them, but many many many more who use oilstones and synthetic waterstones.

Yes, absolutely yes, of course you can.
Not withstanding variation among naturals, I don't find a lot of difference to the coticule side (at least the ones I have).
Cotis and BBW are not easy to master, proficiency is usually the underlying factor.

I use a BBW to:
1. Come off a heavy coticule slurry, as an intermediate step before going to a very light slurry and water as the final steps on the coticule.
2. Re-hone my kitchen cutlery. The BBW does a great job on all my knives, especially the Japanese blades.

I just use the BBW side from a creamy slurry, lots of dilutions on circles. Ease up on pressure progressively to weight of razor.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix51

I use a BBW to:

2. Re-hone my kitchen cutlery. The BBW does a great job on all my knives, especially the Japanese blades.

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Ditto this japanese everything on natural everything. Even japanese chisels take a superb edge off of a washita stone. I think it's just the hardness preventing the scratches getting as deep. That's sort of like saying the sky is blue, I guess.

I've never been that excited about what oilstones do on knives that are too soft (like pocket knives that appear to be just above spring temper), they rely on the object's hardness impeding groove depth a little bit, or they'll just make a big fat wire edge on anything even on a stone that seems to barely cut softer steel.

I use a washita in the kitchen, which isn't a whole lot different in fineness (once broken in some) to BBW and some of the coticules.

I agree with Glen. However, like Phoenix51 I also use my BBW for knives - leather cutting knives, that is. The reasons are twofold:

1. It is hard enough to withstand abuse from small pointy blades, half-round and large curved ones, and more to the point

2. It is covered with little yellow dots, coti dots, and is really fast and fairly fine.

As for shaving off it, the edge is so-so, good enough but no wow-factor. My other hones do the job much better with regards shaving rather than knife maintaining, where the edge (for my needs - cutting and grooving leather) has to be 'stout' rather than frail and refined.

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

As for shaving off it, the edge is so-so, good enough but no wow-factor. My other hones do the job much better with regards shaving rather than knife maintaining, where the edge (for my needs - cutting and grooving leather) has to be 'stout' rather than frail and refined.

Regards,
Neil

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That is exactly the crux with any so-so stone. You can push and push to get something out of it, but at the very best, it might approach what a better stone does very easily and quickly. My experience with BBWs, and in fact most coticules in general, is that they set bevels more slowly than a proper bevel setting stone, and they finish less nicely than other established natural stones and need help from a good linen. At their price, I don't see the point - unless it's personal challenge. They are very pretty stones, though. I still have two that I just like to look at, and they do make comfortable shaves, but there are other stones that make comfortable and sharper shaves.

I guess what glen and others are saying (I am, too), is that you can do the same thing with all stones. Some stones are harsher than others on slurry, but if you have any hone that's based on silica or something fairly soft (and garnets aren't too hard compared to something like diamond or even aluminum oxide), then you can wear the abrasive dull and bring up a polish as long as the hone is hard enough to stop releasing particles once you've gone to clear water.

I am also a natural stone only person. I've got a deep rock coticule that's aggressive and great for bevel setters. I also have a huge super hard finisher that disburden sent me (well, after I paid him for it - super hard meaning it will glaze over and not release particles) that finishes better than any coticule I've seen, but it's too slow for bevel setting and you lose that super finishing action if you agitate it because it's so hard.

I had coticules between those two, but...well, they just seemed mediocre. the fast deep rock coticule is just absolutely abrasive dense, and it's hard, too - I'm sure it would eventually go to a nice finisher if I let it settle in. It'd far better suited to barber hone type use, where you just thin the edge a little bit but don't overwork it.

And on a razor I'm maintaining, I *hate* to see any gray or black in the slurry, unless I don't care about the longevity of the razor. That's just a personal irk because I have a single favorite razor that I have never seen a second of, and I am as stingy with its steel as I can be.

I use powders only when I sell a razor.

Anyway, aside from the eschers from the eschers and finest japanese finishers, most natural stones have fairly large particles, and you can learn what they like for speed. The nice thing about a coti vs. a phig is you can at least see from the color of the swarf if you're making good time on a bevel set.

If you are looking for a natural to maintain a edge why not a thuringian. Or a jnat, like a $70 type 100 asagi and a tomo? IMO they would be much better than a Cnat.

I have played with all the BBW on all my coticules and never really found them good for much on razors. Especially when there's a coticule layer on the other side that is much faster and finer cutting. I say this with one exception, I have a 5x1.25 coticule that has lightening fast BBW on it. It sets bevels as fast if not faster than my coticules.

I'm a natural stones only guy also, I just find synthetics to be boring, I like the challenge of learning a stone and mastering it's full potential.

Back on topic. I agree with everyone else, there are much better ways to maintain a razor than BBW. Some cheap, some pricey.

Synthetic-stone people withstanding... There are quite a few people that believe Coticule stones produce a decent shave-ready edge.

Do people beleive that there is little truth to the study done by Coticles.be that showed that, with blind testing, that using a BBW stone produces a shave-ready edge comparable to the Coticle?

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

...Do people beleive that there is little truth to the study done by Coticles.be that showed that, with blind testing, that using a BBW stone produces a shave-ready edge comparable to the Coticle?...

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That's a loaded question, though, isn't it? Kind of like asking a room full of christians if they believe in God and his teachings (might have a problem with Father Dougal from Craggy Island, though...).

I know that Bart often said that using a BBW for a few strokes after full finishing on a coti produced a 'brisker, more engaging' edge - purely because it knocked some of the smoothness (aka roundedness or what I like to call 'mushiness') off the edge.

Anyway, coticule.be is long defunct and the site it gave rise too has gone that way too - fickle lot, those coti practitioners... :)

Regards,
Neil

Yes, Neil, it was a loaded question. I was disappointed that most of the responses came off as a platform to promote their own kit rather than respond to the question I posed.

You had originally responded that you felt it gave you a "so-so" edge. But you sound to have many other honing stones in your arsenal to compare. I may get to that point over the years...

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Yet many websites list it as a 4000-grit equivalent stone - as though they intentionally want to sway opinion away from it.

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The information putting BBWs in the 4k range predates the information about using them as a finishing stone, and was presented by the same group of people until they decided to represent the BBW as a finishing stone.

Much of the "scientific" data at coticule.be was highly suspect ...

Well guy's,

I hate to be the one descanter among us, but I have had some blindingly keen edges from my cotis easily as keen as my Jnat L5 or nani 12K, even crox. To me its a smoother edge escheresque. I'll admit I do have to flirt with the stone a bit, but to me this is how you get good at honing and it's more fun. I've used coticules that weren't very good at all, but even these can be coaxed a bit with lather or hard soap rubbed into the surface. I sometimes come back to the coti after other hone treatment to kill the crispness. When you get them right, I feel the coticule edge is amongst the best out there. These are the kindest edges on my skin.

Respect
Joe

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Originally Posted by JimmyWetshaver

^^ Yes but he is asking about BBW specifically, not coticules. Not saying one might not say the same but they are 2 diff stones even though they are found together...

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Rhetorical. Same thing in my experience.

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Originally Posted by JimmyWetshaver

You cannot ignore the fact that there was a relationship between that site and the only company current mining ans selling coticules. Coincidence, I think not.
Also at some point coti's will run out but there is plenty off BBW left, hmmmmm. Again coincidence I think not.

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That's quite a conspiracy theory. Not at all contributing to the thread.

Though you'd think better strategy would be to rather tout the capabilities of the coticule and, thereby, raise demand for the more expensive (higher profit margin) product.

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Could a BBW be used as a "one-hone" solution to maintaining a blade? Or, more precisely, as a one/only hone for life (with slurry stone)?

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The answer is .... Maybe.

It's already been said you can't class all naturals by their name alone, e.g. Are all Nakayama Asagi good finishers ? Definitely not.

However if the particular BBW you have can give you the optimal edge you like then you can use it to maintain an edge. Another person may not have the same parameters as you.

To use it as a one hone setup may be dependant on how much free time you have.
Personally I haven't owned or used one that rates as a finisher but I have used one of mine to remove small chips from a Rodgers wedge with a heavy slurry. I was impressed that it was possible but it was very slow compared to a synthetic & I have better uses for my time.

“Could a BBW be used as a "one-hone" solution to maintaining a blade?”

Of course, maybe… depends on the stone.

Try it… perhaps you stone is fine enough.

I do like some BBW’s for kitchen knives.

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Originally Posted by Deckard

..Well guy's,

I hate to be the one descanter among us, but I have had some blindingly keen edges from my cotis [...] these are the kindest edges on my skin...

Respect
Joe

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Exactly - your skin. That's the only criterion that counts really, all the rest is just opinion, and there are as many of those as there are people. Same thing goes for skin, I suppose...

Regards,
Neil

PS: You aren't the only 'descanter' either, not by a long chalk...

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Originally Posted by Deckard

Rhetorical. Same thing in my experience.

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Yeah, kind of like redheads and blondes... :)

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Synthetic-stone people withstanding... There are quite a few people that believe Coticule stones produce a decent shave-ready edge.

Do people beleive that there is little truth to the study done by Coticles.be that showed that, with blind testing, that using a BBW stone produces a shave-ready edge comparable to the Coticle?

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The problem is that due to the variance of the BBW and coticule, the test is only valid for 'that' bbw, not BBW in general. I have several, and they have wildly varying properties. They are also dog slow. The method developed by one of the CBE members required hundreds of laps, with and without slurry. To me, that means it is the wrong stone for the job. Like sweeping a street with a toothbrush.

Setting a bevel on a less than perfect razor with a BBW, while possible, is silly. If I hone a razor (and I only do so after grinding) is something that should take n minutes, not n hours or days.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

...To me, that means it is the wrong stone for the job. Like sweeping a street with a toothbrush...

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HAR! Reminds me of the guy that died and St Peter wouldn't let him through the Pearly Gates unless he either waited for England to win the World Cup or empty the oceans with a spoon. 'OK' says the guy, where's the spoon...

Regards,
Neil

St Peter to reply "There is no spoon".

Attachment 173218

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Synthetic-stone people withstanding... There are quite a few people that believe Coticule stones produce a decent shave-ready edge.

Do people beleive that there is little truth to the study done by Coticles.be that showed that, with blind testing, that using a BBW stone produces a shave-ready edge comparable to the Coticle?

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I'll bet I could get some 3 micron paper from an auto parts store and use it as a finisher, too, at least to get an edge that was shave ready. I showed pictures off of an edge of a piece of jasper that cost me $10, and I've gotten similar pieces for as cheap as 99 cents.

What you can get to create a shaving edge vs. what's really better in most peoples' opinion (based on the subtleties of use that aren't always easy for people to communicate to each other) is two different things.

I personally believe the average person using a coticule would have a keener edge if they had a good vintage linen and used the coticule only to keep the steepness of the bevel in order, but left the actual edge up to the linen to keep in order.

One other side comment - of the coticules I've tried, I've liked the vintage coticules much nicer than the new ardennes marketed coticules. i hear that you can go straight to ardennes and request something of "private stock" quality, etc, but you get to spending so much money doing that for the level of performance that you get that it makes *no* sense at all to me. The idea that a large coticule of new and glued together flavor that has sort of ho hum abrasive density and not a very nice color would be $350 is something I don't get.

I haven't had a vintage coti that I couldn't make some decent use of, except one that was very ugly and coarse (and may have been intended for tools or something, anyway) and made a gentle but very dull edge. The odds are better there, and the stuff that's vintage in the $100 range because of size is where I would park my dollars to try them. Not a BBW. You'll at least get a BBW side on the vintage cotis, anyway, because they will be natural combos.

All this talk of descanters. Now I'm craving whisky.

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Could a BBW be used as a "one-hone" solution to maintaining a blade? Or, more precisely, as a one/only hone for life (with slurry stone)?

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Sure.

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Perhaps I've read too much into the Coticles.be article comparing results between BBW, Coticle and Coticle/BBW stones on straight razors but I want to put it out there. Yet many websites list it as a 4000-grit equivalent stone - as though they intentionally want to sway opinion away from it.
Link to study: http://coticule.be/heritage.html?fil.../BBW-study.pdf or http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/1452.html

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Yes, I think you are reading a bit too much into it. Before all else you have to understand what the grit measurement means. Firstly, it is almost never applicable to a natural hone. Secondly, it has some correlation with removing steel but not too much because it completely ignores the hardness and shape of the abrasive media as well as the properties of the embedding matrix, which are more important than the grit measurement.
Misuse or misleading information from supposed experts normally would raise red flags.

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

From all that I've read elsewhere: it's functionally similar composition as coticle through slower due to the lower garnet content. I would assume that make it easier for new users from causing damage but, based on the results, could still equal the final output of more expensive stones.

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It isn't straightforward conclusion. Slower hone removes less steel in a single stroke, which means that mistakes in the stroke lead to less damage. However the increase of the number of strokes required to accomplish the job means that there is higher probability for strokes with mistakes which would need to be corrected.
Mathematically inexperienced honer is better off with as fast hone as possible. Ideally one that can accomplish the job in a single stroke (we're talking idealized case) - if you had such a hone then you can presumably correct an error with the next stroke and you only need one more error-free stroke to get the razor honed. Single error-free stroke is far more likely than a series of several such ones (remember you're talking novices here).
So, from this basic stochastic model the BBW is the worse choice for a novice, but it's also the significantly cheaper one, that's why you should give it a try (as far as I can tell your only considerations are BBW and coticule).

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Originally Posted by SpikedLemon

Are there users that use a BBW to refresh their blades?

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Probably, though I think it is not likely to find them around here because as you found out there are better options. So I'd assume one would pick an inferior honing option either because they don't know better (unlikely on SRP), or because they are ideologically biased towards it (e.g. they want to use a local hone, or a hone that looks in a particular way), or want to master a harder way of accomplishing something that can be done easier, or even financially biased (e.g. they get compensated to promote a particular hone).
But there are many people who use straight razors, so chances are that there is a number of them who use BBW to maintain them.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

All this talk of descanters. Now I'm craving whisky.

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Are you sure you have not had a few already, Oz....?

:)

I personally wouldnt use a BBW as a one-stop-shop, as Glen says there are other stones for the same money that will give you a much better edge. Personally if you want one stone only the Norton 4/8 is great and a long standing favourite on the forums.

And it has the benefit that because its well known, if you have a problem with using it there are people who can help.

The problem with naturals is they are so variable its hard for anyone to assist you with it unless they have a) the stone in front of them and b) enough experience of OTHER stones to be able to make a judgement call on what the issue might be.

Personally I only use naturals as finishers, I like the consistency and reliability of synthetics for the bulk of my honing and just use the naturals to give that final finish. Over the years I've tried a whole bunch of natural finishers (cotis, Charnley Forests, a variety of J-Nats, Thuringians, eschers and others) and even within one stone type there are a huge number of variaties. Its fun to try them all out, and to hunt out that elusive stone that gives you that wow factor, but if your aim is to have one stone to do it all with then I'd go for a synthetic and probably the Norton 4/8, or the Naniwa SS 3/8.. Though I'm not sure they sell those anymore, they may do but I cant really remember!

This is all just JMHO of course, you need to be happy with the stone you have and the edges you get. If you are happy, boom sorted hehe! :)

Good luck and keep us posted!

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Are you sure you have not had a few already, Oz....?

:)

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No whisky in the house atm Neil but Gordons was on special yesterday so tee many martoonies are a possibility . :)

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

No whisky in the house atm Neil but Gordons was on special yesterday so tee many martoonies are a possibility . :)

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Just curious where do they make your Gordon's the bottle I bought saids Product of Canada.
It makes sense to make it in Canada for the Us market.

Ok well I have been reading this thread more and well kinda decided to just not respond till now. I have been doing experiments and seeing what differences are between stones and seeing what I can do to push the stone to its limits.

Well yesterday, I shaved with my test razor after finishing on a BBW. Well it was a decent shave. BBS in most places. I was in a rush so I didn't really pay to much attention to the trouble spots otherwise it would have been completely BBS. I honed my test razor maybe a month ago (i had to put this test on the back burner as I had a couple of other more important razor projects pop up), but I wrote down notes.

The particular stone I used was a vintage natural combo coti. Now as a disclaimer I didn't obviously have this thread in mind and so, no, I did not use the BBW only. I used a 1k diamond for the bevel set then slurry on a coti diluted to water. I did this because I wanted to take an edge that I knew would be shave ready and then take it to a BBW. I raised slurry on the BBW and again did the same dilution to water. Once I was on water I did 100 laps I did another 50 on oil. Not because thats what it took but because I wanted to make sure everything about the edge was from the BBW and I wanted to squeeze out every bit of smoothness from the stone. Remember I wasn't testing to see if I could shave off the stone I wanted to test what an edge felt like from a particular stone. I probably could have shaved off of it after 50 laps on water not counting the slurry laps. I don't count those I just go off of feel but if I had to guess it would be maybe a total of 200 laps (50 slurry and then 100 water and 50 oil oh and its a 3x2 stone). Any way it didn't take long but mind you this is not going from bevel set it is going from an edge that was done by a finer stone to the bbw. So I was going backward not forward, which undoubtedly would take longer.

Anyways on to the details of the shave. I stropped on linen (50) and leather (100), no pastes. I did my normal prep and used my normal soap that I use for testing. I shaved and on the WTG it was shaving fine but not what I prefer or can get out of my coti or arks or c12k. The only stone that did not beat the BBW that is in my possession and have tested was the Dragons Tongue. I didn't even want to finish shaving off of the Dragons Tongue.

Anyways the shave was very close and decently smooth (as in comfort) and all in all I would say it is acceptable but not to me especially when I could have done half of the work with just a coti. Oh and if money is the only thing preventing you from getting a good stone. The coti combo that I used to do this test was 5 bucks so I think you can afford that.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

No whisky in the house atm Neil but Gordons was on special yesterday so tee many martoonies are a possibility . :)

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Ver nishe, Ossh:

Attachment 173317

Hic!
Neil

I got a 8x3 natural from a forum member who liked 'scary sharp' edges and didn't find the coticule/bbw provided such. I was early into my honing journey and found this coticule to my liking. Flash back to the 1980s when I bought 3 natural coticules from 3 individual barbers who'd been cutting hair, shaving customers, and honing razors for 50 years on average. All three told me the bbw side was only to support the fragile yellow side, and not for honing.

Old Rock and Deep Rock brand would sell their stones with a label glued onto the bbw. Bart posted that it was only in recent years that the bbw was found to be a viable razor hone, and posted photos of BBW used as paving stones, fences on the countryside, and even as stone facing on houses. One of a huge table top of bbw. Back to my 8x3, long before coticule.be existed, when Bart was still around SRP, I experimented with a sort of pyramid with my 8x3.

I would set the bevel on a 1k norton and then go to the bbw followed by the yellow. Seemed to work well. As I gained experience I began to realize that the bbw stage was not worth the effort. This is not to say that it didn't produce results, it did 'something'. But the energy expended was not worth the time when just staying on the coticule would be superior. BTW, I've got a slue of coticules, and have had quite a few more than the 6 I have now. I like them. I'd like to like the BBW, but IME it adds nothing to the arsenal.

If all a guy had was a BBW I guess he could get along. OTOH, he could do a lot better with a yellow coticule or many other alternatives. That is my hands on experience, obviously YMMV.