Choosing hones - Why, instead of what

Gents,

I've read a few threads about selecting hones and I have noticed a few trends in the recommendations. Many members have expressed their opinions, but few have explained the reason why they choose a specific hone.

I'm not trying to find out what each member is using, but I would rather try to understand why they chose a specific hone, what the differences are between hones (beyond grit rating), what are the pros and cons, etc...

I have a few specific questions, and although some of them are asking almost the same thing, it illustrates what I am struggling to understand...

1. Most users seem to agree that the Norton 4k/8k combo is the best place to start. Why? How is this different than buying a 4k and a 8k from a different brand?

2. Along the same line, what is the difference between a Norton 8k, Naniwa 8k, Shapton 8k, etc...

3. What is the advantage of a natural stone, and assuming there is one, why doesn't everybody use them?

4. What makes certain stones unsuitable for beginners?

5. Why do some members have such a wide variety of stones? Are some stones better suited for specific razors? How do you choose which ones you'll use for a given razor?

Hopefully someone is brave enough to tackle this thread and educate me...

Thanks in advance!

Well,,,, it has nothing to do with bravery, more with time. I could be here for a day & a half giving you my thoughts on each of these questions, only to have another member feel differently & rightly so.
Have you had a chance to read in the library about honing for beginners? Some of your questions are answered there.

Beginner's Guide to Honing - Straight Razor Place Library

Take a look at the honing section in the Library & see if some of your questions are answered.

Let me see if I can simplify things here.............................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................................ummm nope. Other than to say besides grit there is price. Size might make a difference for beginners but I feel you learn what you get, how ever you get it. The Norton is highly recommended because of the quality and price and popularity. It is an old stand by so to speak and some compare everything else to that stone. Why so many? Wheat , white , rye, all bread, but a little different taste. Some of us like to taste it all and we can. As for naturals there are many more of them than man made. No grit ratings because each one can be different.

Hirlau's advice is the best place to start and that is if your at the stage where you really need (or just want) a hone. When it comes to tasting all the different hones you will need the experience in shaving to tell the difference.


See I kept my promise, nothing about hones is simple unless you keep it that way.

I cant answer many but heres the ones I can with my thoughts

1. Most users seem to agree that the Norton 4k/8k combo is the best place to start. Why? How is this different than buying a 4k and a 8k from a different brand?
- this is the bench mark of hones, all hones are usually compared to this hone, it is an easy hone to learn & used due to plenty of info on how to use it can be found.
2. Along the same line, what is the difference between a Norton 8k, Naniwa 8k, Shapton 8k, etc...
- cant answer this one as I only have a Nani 1k, The nortn 4/8k and a Nani 12k & a couple of barbers hones

3. What is the advantage of a natural stone, and assuming there is one, why doesn't everybody use them?
- cant answer this one either, but dearer to buy, naturals are subject to variations in grit consitancy & harder to learn due to slurries etc being required.

4. What makes certain stones unsuitable for beginners?
- ease of use, with consistant & repeatable results

5. Why do some members have such a wide variety of stones?
- all I can say is search HAD

6. Are some stones better suited for specific razors?
- the lads that know how to use the different stones well can get different finnishes on different steel maybe, but not this beginner.

7. How do you choose which ones you'll use for a given razor?
- unfortunately trial & error with your own experience is the biggest factor hear I think.
and this is the road to HAD

1. Did my research on what are generally considered good hones. Discarded outlier opinions and got a feel for where the consensus was.
2. Decided to go with synthetic hones because of the high degree of uniformity of the material resulting in consistent performance, and easy maintenance. As a beginner at that time, I wanted to keep variables and inconsistencies that I had no control over to a minimum.
3. When I ordered my first hone, I accepted the recommendation of SRD regarding grit size (12k iso the originally intended 4/8k combo), as my first hone was intended to maintain - rather than create - an acceptable razor's edge.
4. When adding hones, I worked on the assumption that hones from one manufacturer will work well together.
5. Did my research on which grit sizes make a good progression, from setting a bevel till finishing. Worked then my way down from the 12k hone by successively adding hones with grit sizes of increasing coarseness.
6. Bought finally a 20k polishing hone based on several reviews in order to eliminate pastes and sprays to the extent possible.


That's it in a nutshell; no "Whats" only "Whys".


You may not necessarily choose the same brand as I did, but I do believe the concept makes sense.


Good luck.

The gentlemen above answered your questions, and, I would like to add,
On your first question, the Norton 4/8k aside from being easy to use/friendly, it's also cheaper in North America.
For us in Europe, or people in other continents, we'll have to pay another 30-50$ for shipping. And, again, in Europe, we have to add a VAT around 20% of the price, making it easier to order directly from Japan that has good and cheap shipping options.

There is nothing wrong with a Naniwa 3/8k, or any other combo in similar grits from well recognized brands like Naniwa, Shapton, Sigma etc. But availability in a competitive price is a big factor, especially to a beginner, who might not like honing after trying.

On your second question, speed, maintenance, and "longevity" of the stone, make someone to choose one or the other. A soft stone lasts less than a harder one. Might be faster (but not always), but also will need frequent lapping, and generally, soft stones are friendlier to the user than hard ones.

On your third question, about naturals: They are slow, thus a bad choice for anything but a finisher, but, as finishers they offer smoothness to the edges, something man made ones are not famous for. Many of them are cheaper, and, they look nice. They are also a bit harder to use.

On your fourth question. You need time to learn the technique/tricks of every stone. A stone that needs more time than others is considered unsuitable for a beginner. Like the naturals.

And lastly, a variety of stones means a single thing, HAD! Yes, razors seem to have their preferences about stones, but it's not as serious as it sounds.

First, I chose the Chosera 1k because it seems that many / most of the respected honers seem to use them as their go-to bevel setter and there is plenty of information / experience shared with this stone. gssixgun and others have commented that 90% of the work/technique is setting the bevel so I was happy to pay the price and get a good hone for bevel setting.

Moving up, I went with the Norton 4/8k. Firstly there is heaps of information, tips, youtube videos etc. Secondly, good honers can get a good shave from them, so I wanted to be able to get to that state on the same hone. If I couldn't do that, I feel I have no place attempting other stones - as I would not be equipped to truly evaluate the differences. If I have questions, most members are familiar with the stone and share their thoughts & suggestions.

I also bought a coticule and an escher, really just for a bit of fun and for experimentation, and to practice / try different techniques. I wanted to play with them both and compare results and see if either could better my edges after the Norton 8k. I found the coticule doesnt improve the 8k edge for me personally yet, but the escher does slightly - but it's a very small improvement. Im hoping over time that I get better use from the escher.

I am lucky to have a few razors honed by gssixgun to use as my yardstick. Even though I can now get a good shave from the Norton 8k and slightly better when finished with the escher, there's still a gap between what I can do vs gssixgun's work. Its a small gap, and both shave well, but the feeling of using a razor honed by gssixgun is just better... smoother, silky etc. But I am determined to match it with my own honing... someday.

First the question why. Price, availability, feel,ease of use,maintenance and prep time are some of the main variables.

1) has been covered pretty well. Easily available with plenty of info and easy to use.

2)don't know all of it but feel, availability, things like soaking and how often it needs lapping come into play and it personal preference

3)naturals have different shapes to the grit and are considered by many to leave a sharp but really smooth edge but do take more time and effort to learn and have a high cost

4)ease of use and how hard it is to learn. If a stone takes a advanced honer a month to learn properly a beginner will be at it a long time. Synthetics are recommended for this reason as they are consistent and uniform in thier performance

5)why so many hones. Mainly cos we can. Variety is good and they do impart a different feel and its nice to mix it up. Some are better for different steels but the pros are better for that information.

Hope this helps a bit. Good luck

I think to really get to the bottom of this would take a couple of sarsaparillas and a good long chin wag. Everyone seems to touched on the main stuff. Naturals can be a passion, couple that with rockhounding, and you have the reason my backyard looks like it does. The Norton is probably the most available series of hones in North America, at a low cost, and are very effective to use. They are also easy to learn because almost everyone has them, so a dice is close at hand, and they are very consistent. PM me anytime you want to have a long winded discussion on the subject.

Really, it does not matter, any 1K, mid-range stone and 8k will fininsh, as long as the grit is consistent.

The stones we talk about are consistent, proven stones for razors, not knives, machetes and axes…razors.

Recently there was a thread asking about a synthetic Chinese stone, the price was almost the same as proven stones. It may or may not be as consistent, but why take the chance?

Mostly it is about feel, as you progress in your honing, you can feel when the edge is right, the feeling has to be learned as does the performance of the stone.

Some of us are chasing the elusive 1 percent of… extra and some believe they have found it in naturals, pastes or strops. If it works for you…rock on.

Buy any quality 1k and a 4/8K or equivalent stone, put steel to rock and learn to hone… you will, find out what works for you.

Hi, I’ll take a shot at it.

1. IMO, the Norton 4/8 is an O.K. stone, but people report having to lap the 4k side extensively to get to “usable” material. That alone would put it in the substandard category for me, or make it a knife hone. That said, if you mess with it, it works O.K. and gets the job done. You also can’t use the edge to hone warped, smiling, or frowning edges with a double sided hone.

You might buy a Shapton or a Naniwa if you don’t want to have to lap the stone down to usable material.

2. Two basic differences in these hones, the grit standard and the binder.

Manufacturer’s use different grit ranges. A Naniwa 8k will be finer than a Norton or Shapton 8k. There’s a chart in the SRP Wiki IIRC, or you can Google it. For example, I use a Shapton Pro 2k as a bevel setter and it produces a scratch pattern identical to my eye to a Naniwa 1k Superstone. Just make sure you know what you’re using if you mix and match brands. If you use the same brand throughout the range, it’s less of a consideration. If you went from a King 6k to a Norton 8k, you might not be doing anything or going backwards.

The binders cause the “feel” of the hone. Some people prefer a given feel to another, that’s one reason why they make so many types of binder. Naniwa Superstones use resin binders and are designed to mimic a natural stone, They feel a bit “gummy” or “sticky” compared to a Naniwa Chosera or a Shapton Pro or Glass Stone. Naniwa Choseras are magnesia binders and are harder and feel less sticky than the Superstones. A lot of people like the Chosera 1k as a bevel setter, and the Choseras are, or were, thick enough to hone on the edge. Shaptons and Naniwas are not.

3. Many folks, including me, like the feel of a razor edge off a natural stone and feel it’s smoother than off synthetics. Others can’t tell much difference so YMMV, but for many, the only synthetic that comes close is the Suehiro Gokumyo series, the 20k in particular.

One reason you might want to use a Belgian coticule or a JNat is that there are “one hone” solutions. You can set a bevel and finish off a coticule although it’s laborious, and most prefer to set the bevel on a synth and go from there with the coticule. JNats can also go from a 1k to a shaving edge on a single stone but most want a more refined edge that results from a progression of either benchstones or naguras.

One reason you might not want to use a natural is because like all natural products, they vary from stone to stone with the Escher/Thuringians likely being the most consistent. If you hone a lot for other people, when you wear a hone out, you don’t want to have to buy several to get one you like then learn that particular stone’s technique to get the best edge. Your backlog would be getting huge and your patrons irritable.

4. If you aren’t at least used to basic razor honing, effect of pressure, even stroke pressure, X- and rolling strokes, dealing with non-straight straights (and a large percentage of them are not straight) and so on, natural stones that generate slurry that must be managed, especially in a very strict manner like coticules simply introduces unneeded distractions for newbies. But it can be done.

This same slurry can be of great advantage if you’re more experienced because you can tweak the edge in ways you haven’t learned as a beginner, especially with a variety of naguras or rubbing stones to create slurries of different character.

5. Good question! Likely because we’re hone nerds and enjoy owning and using different ones. I do use certain hones on certain razors, but most work pretty well on all razors.

I’m a JNat person and like suitas, Hakkas (a certain mine), and coarser tomae strata stones as intermediate razor stones, and finishers on knives. I like the finer tomae strata, kiita and asagi for finishing razors.

One reason to own several is if you like different honing styles. I like to do my final finish with the hone hand held much of the time, and a huge thick bench stone has problems in that respect, so I need smaller ones, barber-hone size or smaller.

Some of us also have a set of narrow stones for those "problem" children.

Hope this helps,

Cheers, Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RezDog

Naturals can be a passion, couple that with rockhounding, and you have the reason my backyard looks like it does.

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Hey Shaun, I have an image in my head now that your yard looks like a rock quarry over burden stock pile LOL with piles of assorted finds awaiting cutting a lapping to see if they are viable
& God help us what your actual cleaned up & tested hones cupboard looks like some thing like the Japanese lad in the middle of hte walls of stones in his shop.
I do like the look of your Shaun hones but they have a nice colouring to them.

Wow, thanks for the info, this is exactly what I was looking for! I did read the Wiki and many other threads, but I hadn't found the answers to these questions yet.

Thanks for your time in helping me out!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shallard

Wow, thanks for the info, this is exactly what I was looking for! I did read the Wiki and many other threads, but I hadn't found the answers to these questions yet.

Thanks for your time in helping me out!

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amen to that, it was fortuitous that this came up at the same time as want to look for info on honing!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Substance

Hey Shaun, I have an image in my head now that your yard looks like a rock quarry over burden stock pile LOL with piles of assorted finds awaiting cutting a lapping to see if they are viable
& God help us what your actual cleaned up & tested hones cupboard looks like some thing like the Japanese lad in the middle of hte walls of stones in his shop.
I do like the look of your Shaun hones but they have a nice colouring to them.

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I do believe that you hit that nail on the head!

for myself I simply prefer working with stones I have used for better than a decade and seven years.I'm an odd duck in most senses and like using king stones 800 up to 8000 and all in between have their place.on the Natural side I use Arkansas stones simply for the keenness imparted by them. (Shrug) .