Dumb question guy here

I have sharpened my own hunting knifes and kitchen knifes my entire life. How similar/dissimilar are razors to hone and sharpen? I typically use my arm hair to check for sharpness on of my knifes(if it is sharp enough to cut the hair of my arm fairly easy it is sharp enough ). Would my sharpening technique for knifes transfer to razor. The reason I ask is I only go to a 1000k stone for my knifes, but I see a lot about 4k and 8k stones. Just wondering if I should just use same technique just higher grit on stones? Thanks.

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~Richard

Knives vs Razors

I was a meat cutter for several years and I will tell you straight out that the difference between 'sharpening a knife' and 'honing' a razor is as different as black and white!!

IT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD!!!

Please take your time, go slow! Every Thing about this 'Art' involves Patience!!!

Honing can wait! Get the 'Basics' Down Pat!!! Just ask pinklather/a Mentor/why he chose that 'handle'!!!!!

We start setting a Bevel at the 1000 grit level, that same level is what many who sharpen knives finish with.

Cudarunner,

Ok, so basically start as if I never sharpened anything before. That helps a lot by giving me a starting point. Thanks for the background info because that gives me a great point of reference, I was a meat cutter for a few years as well and still do my own butchering of wild game(why pay someone to do something I learned in my 20's, right)That was my only reference for honing. I have ordered a couple of very cheap razors to practice on. Thank you.

Geezer, Thanks for the link.

In principal all sharpening involves the same base principles. It start with the establishment of a perfect apex. That apex is then refined to a finer and finer edge, if it gets too far refined it becomes too delicate and starts to break down or fold. The process of how we achieve that is different with almost every different type of object we sharpen. A straight razor is put to our face every time we shave. That refined edge has to be quite specific. There is thread after thread on this forum about specifics for refining edges and the variation of the techniques used. Most are very close with subtle changes and variations of the progression of hones. It is the best approach to figure out the shaving aspect and then focus on the honing. Not everyone needs to learn to hone and there are a lot of professionals that will take care of that. That is a great place to begin, with a professionally sharpened edge. There is a little bit of learning and a development that gets you to the great shave we are all seeking. I hope you enjoy the shaves and suspect you will hone in the end too.

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Originally Posted by Batsmurf

Cudarunner,

Ok, so basically start as if I never sharpened anything before. That helps a lot by giving me a starting point. Thanks for the background info because that gives me a great point of reference, I was a meat cutter for a few years as well and still do my own butchering of wild game(why pay someone to do something I learned in my 20's, right)That was my only reference for honing. I have ordered a couple of very cheap razors to practice on. Thank you.

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You will find that you will have to re-learn muscle memory and techniques (especially 'pressure'. It's an entirely different thing. It's hard to write about, but once you 'try' to hone, you will find the differences.

If the 'cheap' practice razors have problems, then you are going to be banging your head against the wall trying to hone them!!!!!! :banghead:

I Highly Recommend that you send your razor/razors out to a pro or someone who has experience for honing. Then once you give it a go, you will have something to judge your honing by.

With that said, PM me and we can talk further about honing. :tu

I will have to differ, a little. I grew up with a butcher shop in our front yard. Learned to sharpen knives at a young age. My pocket knives were like scalpels!

Started shaving with a straight when I started shaving many years ago and although different, the general idea is the same. Make the two bevels meet cleanly then polish them up.

Once you try to shave with what you think is d@mn sharp, you will learn edge refinement LOL.

And if you don't get one honed right the for your first shave how will you know if it's shave ready? Take up Roy's generous offer , he'll get you going in the right direction , or if your over Memphis way some time , I'll let you try a razor to see what you will be going for as far as sharp and smooth ,, lots of guys can get them sharp ,, but smooth and sharp is what your going for. Tc

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Originally Posted by tcrideshd

And if you don't get one honed right the for your first shave how will you know if it's shave ready?

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Oh, you will know! First pass down the cheek will provide excellent feedback.

Again, I'm not saying that it's easy or quick but it's also not some voodoo black arts thing if you already know how to sharpen a blade. Having one professionally honed by a razor pro as a baseline is a very good idea but what many folks selling razors call shave-ready does not meet my (skins) standard of sharp.

The good thing here is that you are willing to ask the question. Experience is very useful when coupled to an open mind. I thought I knew a few things about knives when Randy showed up in my shop one day. I did not know sharp like I should have. I got even for getting me hooked on this part of the craft by heat treating a blade that ate his stones. But he, and others here, are turn-to folks when it needs to be a sharp razor.

Keep one razor available, that's been honed by a professional. That's your yardstick of comparison as you approach your own honing. As has been said, and deserves repetition...you can shave arm hair, but what's your honed edge feel like on your face? The final test will always be your face.

I wouldn't say that knowing how to hone knifes or chisels is so much different from honing razors, nor that it counts for nothing.
Someone with enough experience knows what a bevel is, how stones feel and what stone progression is, probably knows how not to use too much or too little pressure, as there are knives and tools delicate enough to require less pressure, what overhoning is etc.
All those are very important for learning how to hone razors, and will save a lot of time.
What I wouldn't recommend is, razors with flaws, like some gold dollar razors with very thick shoulders that touch the stone before the blade does, or frowns, as breadknifing is somewhat rare for knives. Anything that shouldn't be there on a razor, you probably wouldn't be able to find it and know what to do.
The better the condition of the razor, the easier it will be.
And, on your first razors, be prepared to remove more metal than is necessary. That's something you learn from experience with razors only.

I have been finding it more and more difficult to find a razor without a flaw.

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

I wouldn't say that knowing how to hone knifes or chisels is so much different from honing razors, nor that it counts for nothing.
Someone with enough experience knows what a bevel is, how stones feel and what stone progression is, probably knows how not to use too much or too little pressure, as there are knives and tools delicate enough to require less pressure, what overhoning is etc.
All those are very important for learning how to hone razors, and will save a lot of time.
What I wouldn't recommend is, razors with flaws, like some gold dollar razors with very thick shoulders that touch the stone before the blade does, or frowns, as breadknifing is somewhat rare for knives. Anything that shouldn't be there on a razor, you probably wouldn't be able to find it and know what to do.
The better the condition of the razor, the easier it will be.
And, on your first razors, be prepared to remove more metal than is necessary. That's something you learn from experience with razors only.

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A good way to think about it is the difference is final use. A razor has to be extremely sharp… and comfortable.

You can beat a knife edge into submission and get a sharp edge, but you will never shave with it. How you get there is the difference. It is like the difference between commuting and driving a formula one car, they are both driving… “I can drive…”

Add the nuance of vintage razors or straight razors in general and you find that knife techniques will not work…very well.
The similarities are, they are both sharp, and that’s about it.

Then there is the knowledge glass is full, thing… and you need to empty it a bit, to refill with new knowledge. Some folks have a problem with that.

For me at least, smooth WTG and smooth ATG are a different story. I hardly ever have an edge I consider harsh coming straight off the stones and plain leather when shaving WTG. But ATG can be much harsher for me at least - especially on my neck - I have hair growing in all sorts of different directions, so it's hard to get a comfy shave there.

1th thing to do: Flatten your 1 K stone !! (this wasn't that important with knives, now it is!)

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Originally Posted by Batsmurf

Just wondering if I should just use same technique just higher grit on stones? Thanks.

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Short answer: NO

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Originally Posted by Bram

1th thing to do: Flatten your 1 K stone !! (this wasn't that important with knives, now it is!)

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Flattening the stone was something my grandfather(the great man that taught me) made me do a least once or twice a year he insisted it was important. Told me I should be able to shave with a knife when I am done sharpening and if he did not like the edge he would hit it against the porch and make me do it again. So I learned to make an edge very nice but have never done something actually meant to shave with. Thanks for the advice!

OP. No such thing as a dumb question, but you seem to be in a hotbed of members where you are. Look for guys who are knowledgeable near you. See some razor-honing up close and with words to get the start. Or, do it the hard way like I did. We all learn every day.
No substitute for learning from experienced guys. No reason to learn from the inexperienced! JMO

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Originally Posted by Batsmurf

Flattening the stone was something my grandfather(the great man that taught me) made me do a least once or twice a year he insisted it was important. Told me I should be able to shave with a knife when I am done sharpening and if he did not like the edge he would hit it against the porch and make me do it again. So I learned to make an edge very nice but have never done something actually meant to shave with. Thanks for the advice!

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That sounds like the way my grandfather taught me to hone.

Woodworking is also a hobby of mine and I am constantly honing all sorts of blades. What translated over from honing other blades was the feel and sound of the metal on the hone and knowing that "that feel" meant that it was time to move on to the next hone. The X pattern and rolling X kind of translated over, the angle is just different.

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Originally Posted by sharptonn

OP. No such thing as a dumb question, but you seem to be in a hotbed of members where you are. Look for guys who are knowledgeable near you. See some razor-honing up close and with words to get the start. Or, do it the hard way like I did. We all learn every day.
No substitute for learning from experienced guys. No reason to learn from the inexperienced! JMO

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Yeah I guess I should have titled it Ignorant guy askin question, nothing wrong with being ignorant unless it is willful ignorance, but dumb question is what I have always said to preface a question to which I am certain anyone with experience could answer. In other words, i did not think it was a dumb question, just a habit way of asking.

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Originally Posted by criswilson10

That sounds like the way my grandfather taught me to hone.

Woodworking is also a hobby of mine and I am constantly honing all sorts of blades. What translated over from honing other blades was the feel and sound of the metal on the hone and knowing that "that feel" meant that it was time to move on to the next hone. The X pattern and rolling X kind of translated over, the angle is just different.

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Just reviewing replies to this post that is kinda what I have picked up. I have to say though of all the forum I have ever posted anything to this one sure seems to have a lot more folks willing to give advice on subject matter than most are, most of them just poke fun with only 1-2 helpful replies every now and again. It is quite a change of pace for me.