Is this good advice?

In my quest to be a completely self sufficient straight razor addict I have recently ordered a Norton 4k/8k waterstone and am looking for an inexpensive means of "finishing/ touching up". I presented this scenario to my local honing professional and he recommended a table strop with abrasive paste as an alternative to a finishing hone until I can raise the cash for a 10-16k. He did say that it is an inferior alternative that was likely to take much longer than a proper hone, but that it would work better than just an 8K finish.

What are your thoughts on this?

You can also use the back side of your strop and get a paste or some powder for stropping. It doesn't have to be a table strop/paddle strop. It's not a bad idea at all, but you'll have to find a fine paste, as most of them are not fine enough. The SRD chromium oxide is a good and friendly choice.

Table, or paddle strops have a place in my line up.
Nappy leather with .25 diamond, or crox will maintain and edge between honing's, so presumably it would finish a razor from 8k as well although I personally have not tried as I have a number of finishing hones and barber hones in the +8k range.
Look on ebay for hones, there are deals to be had. Were you north of the border I would send you one of mine to get started.
Good luck.
ps, I hear with proper technique, which I still do not have, you can get shave ready from 8 k and stropping.

There are many who use a pasted strop as part of their finishing routine as well. I have heard many comment about Chromium Oxide and Ferrous Oxide and a smaller group that use cerium oxide. They will also work great for touch ups until it get to that certain point where the blade needs a little more help than pastes can provide. A barbers hone is also a great way to help keep an edge maintained, and if you combine a barbers hone with a pasted strop you may never need to fully hone your blade unless something bad happens to it.

You can get a Chinese 12k ish off eBay pretty cheap as well

Some guys have reported good results from the Apache Strata stone after an 8k - I just picked up a small one suitable for finishing for less than $50.

If your advise came from Glen It's golden , he wouldn't steer you wrong , he's pretty good at razor edges you know , But I don't know the grit rating on CRoX but it's a lot finer than your stones ,, and you can maintain the edge a long time with it ,, them hones don't have to touch the razor very often, and yes an 8 k edge is very good to shave with ,, Tc

Some years ago the 8k side of the norton was considered the 'finishing stone.' My honing mentor told me to restrict my finishing to the 8k until I was getting a DFS at that level, before going on up the ladder. Matter of fact there were more than a few guys on SRP, back then, who were not caught up in the HAD, and stuck with the 8k completely satisfied with it. Chrom-Ox is nice to have to gild the lilly, but get real good up to the 8k before you spend $ on a 12 or a 16k. IMHO.

I have read in a post recently that an 8K edge will not last as long as a finer grit finish. Is that because the edge has a more jagged surface?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Straightandproud

I have read in a post recently that an 8K edge will not last as long as a finer grit finish. Is that because the edge has a more jagged surface?

---

That does not sound right. I think as an edge gets refined it becomes more fragile. It gets to be a slippery slope, both the refinement of edges and this discussion about them. We are talking about super tiny differences. Of course a lot of this also comes down to the hand that refined the edge and the blade that was refined and the rock it was on. Very technical, very minute differences that would not be easily backed by science. I would be curious about the source on that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Straightandproud

In my quest to be a completely self sufficient straight razor addict I have recently ordered a Norton 4k/8k waterstone and am looking for an inexpensive means of "finishing/ touching up". I presented this scenario to my local honing professional and he recommended a table strop with abrasive paste as an alternative to a finishing hone until I can raise the cash for a 10-16k. He did say that it is an inferior alternative that was likely to take much longer than a proper hone, but that it would work better than just an 8K finish.

What are your thoughts on this?

---

My first thought is: what don't you trust about your local honing professional? :hmmm:
If you're simply looking for confirmation and/or alternative suggestions, you're bound to get them.

Not at all that I don't "trust" him. he is very good at what he does. I am just looking for options since he was unable to give me details on lapping pastes. Probably because he doesn't use them. He has what looks like a couple K worth of stones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Straightandproud

Not at all that I don't "trust" him. he is very good at what he does. I am just looking for options since he was unable to give me details on lapping pastes. Probably because he doesn't use them. He has what looks like a couple K worth of stones.

---

That reminds me of a good quote from a prominent honer. No amount of money spent on hones will ever replace the time spent to learn how to use them. It may not be word for word but everyone understands the context. Use the paste.

I have an Illinois #127 strop. the underside of the leather is pretty coarse and fuzzy, obviously because that is where it was cut. So I could use the paste on it even though it is rough?

More importantly before thinking of 12-15k you must master the 4k/8k, read this thread: http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...on-2012-a.html

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Some years ago the 8k side of the norton was considered the 'finishing stone.' My honing mentor told me to restrict my finishing to the 8k until I was getting a DFS at that level, before going on up the ladder. Matter of fact there were more than a few guys on SRP, back then, who were not caught up in the HAD, and stuck with the 8k completely satisfied with it. Chrom-Ox is nice to have to gild the lilly, but get real good up to the 8k before you spend $ on a 12 or a 16k. IMHO.

---

This is good sound advice :tu

I will add that I advise that guys wait awhile until they give even the 'touching up' a go until they have the basics of stropping, lathering and of course shaving down. If you take the time and see how many new guys ruin a perfectly good professionally honed blade just by incorrect stropping. You can totally mess up an edge 10 times faster with a hone.

It wasn't mentioned in your initial post so I'll ask; did your local help tell you that the Norton 4/8K will need a good lapping before you can use it? If not, he should have.

Back to the 8K edge. I've said this time and time again and I'll keep saying it:

If I were to drop and break my Norton 4/8K I'd eat peanut butter sandwiches day in and day out until I could afford another one. If I were to drop and break my Naniwa 12K and couldn't afford to replace it--I could live off of my 8K edge for the rest of my life.

If you can't get a close, smooth and comfortable shave off the 8K no amount of pastes or higher grit hones will do 'Magic'. As my friend Glen likes to say:

"No amount of money spent on a Stone can ever replace the value of the time it takes learning to use it properly"

Back to the original question the OP asked; yes, a pasted line up consisting of one, or a sequnce of many, abrasive strops is a very viable route and will yield fine results. As far as an 8K stone being a shave ready standard I would have to agree with what everyone else has said. Works great, however thereis always something new to try. I am pretty sure that is how your honing mentor got a few grand of stones. :)

Yes, he did inform me of the correct method of lapping in the stone. And you have me sold on focusing on the Norton. I have been very successful at stropping my razors. I have approximately 20+ shaves on one razor and it is starting to tug during a shave. That one will be my first attempt at honing.

You can shave off of an 8k just fine. Everything after 4k is pretty much just making the blade smoother and thus the shave smoother. You can maintain a blade for years with just pasted strops (CrOx, FeOx, and carbon black) and never need a finishing stone. People have been doing it that way for over a century.
The hones are just cooler. :)

CrOx is comparable to 30k grit, so a jump from 8k stone to 30k is going to take a good number of laps (maybe 30 or 40), but it will work. 1 or .5 micron diamond paste would be faster and follow it with CrOx so it is not as harsh.


When I started shaving I was hitting the 12k and 8k stones pretty often. As my technique has improved I only use CrOx about once a month and only use my 12k if I have it out finishing a banged up blade.

I've never used paste but the advice is sound. I'd still get a 16k hone, I use my Shapton 16k basically as a 'barbers' hone' for touching up the edge. I use it of course after using the Norton 4/8 (on the very rare occasions I actually have to use the 4/8), but more often use the Shapton 16k to bring the edge back; normally only 10 laps for most of my razors (20 for the harder Swedish steel razors).

I wouldn't get too wrapped up in thinking about the edge of the razor (unless you WANT to) and its fragility, etc. It's all theory and there's a LOT of variables. Just see how you go refreshing the edge on the pasted strop (and later on the 16k) and DOCUMENT what you do. Use your documentation to inform you of what works and what doesn't; not some metallurgy text book or microscope pictures. It's how the razor feels on your face and the job it does that matters, NOT what an edge might look like under a microscope.

I started keeping a honing journal some times ago so I could make reference to it when responding to beginners' queries here. I rotate 6 straights. Referring to the journal tells me I refresh the edge of my razors on the 16k only about 1 every six months OR LESS. However, again, lots of variables, I have quite a light beard growth. But, I know, for me, all I need is a Norton 4/8 (only really used for when I buy another razor) and the 16k (10 to 20 laps as mentioned) and my razors are always in very good condition.

BTW, in addition to this I strop 30/70 each shave with 10/10 post shave. I also stopped applying any sort of oil to my razors (I used to apply eucalyptus oil) and have found no difference whatsoever...

Hope this is of some help.

Carl

Learning to use the Norton sounds like good advice. I'd recommend shaving off the 4K too, you might be surprised at the results - I've not shaved off a Norton 4K but shaving off 1K and 6K stones really does confirm how much of the work is done at the lower grits, alongside a good stropping.

If the plan is long term self sufficiency and you already have a 4K & 8K, and a method to keep them flat, I think an ~1K synthetic bevel setter should be first on the list. If you can set a decent bevel ~1K then refine it with the 4K>8K you are self sufficient imo. A finisher is the icing on the cake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by criswilson10

CrOx is comparable to 30k grit, so a jump from 8k stone to 30k is going to take a good number of laps (maybe 30 or 40), but it will work. 1 or .5 micron diamond paste would be faster and follow it with CrOx so it is not as harsh.

---

8K>30K is a very big jump in numbers but I found even a few laps on a chromium oxide loaded strop made a huge difference to my edges coming off a 6K stone. When I went for a paste progression of 1>1.5 micron diamond to chromium oxide I usually ended up with a harsh edge & a rough shave, granted this could be my technique. I'm not really looking for a true 30K edge when taking a razor from 6/8K stone to chromium oxide, just a little extra smooth/sharp in the shave. Having said that I no longer use chromium oxide and prefer stone>linen>leather.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Straightandproud

Yes, he did inform me of the correct method of lapping in the stone. And you have me sold on focusing on the Norton. I have been very successful at stropping my razors. I have approximately 20+ shaves on one razor and it is starting to tug during a shave. That one will be my first attempt at honing.

---

I may get beat up with this post, but it won't be the first time nor shall it probably be the last.

You say that you have been "very successful at stropping my razors" however they are 'tugging' after Only 20+ shaves???? Somethings not right here! At least in my very humble opinion. :shrug:

I have questions.

What kind of beard (as far as coarseness of the hair) do you consider yourself to have: A. Light B. Medium C. Heavy D. Compares to Steel Wool.

I would grade my beard as (B) Medium and even when I was a Newbie I got at least 60 shaves before my razor started tugging and I only had a Vintage leather strop with no cloth to help out.

I have run into guys with 'beards of Brillo' as I like to call them. One guy I was trying to help complained that his razor started 'tugging' after a week or so. So I loaned a razor out with a fresh hone on it and Shave Ready and asked that he shave with it every day for one week, making sure that he was properly stropping and then send it back.

I didn't even need my loupe as I could see the 'dings' in the edge. That man had a beard of Brillo and that's why his edge was going south so soon.

I do hope this offers some help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cudarunner

I may get beat up with this post, but it won't be the first time nor shall it probably be the last.

You say that you have been "very successful at stropping my razors" however they are 'tugging' after Only 20+ shaves???? Somethings not right here! At least in my very humble opinion. :shrug:

I have questions.

What kind of beard (as far as coarseness of the hair) do you consider yourself to have: A. Light B. Medium C. Heavy D. Compares to Steel Wool.

I would grade my beard as (B) Medium and even when I was a Newbie I got at least 60 shaves before my razor started tugging and I only had a Vintage leather strop with no cloth to help out.

I have run into guys with 'beards of Brillo' as I like to call them. One guy I was trying to help complained that his razor started 'tugging' after a week or so. So I loaned a razor out with a fresh hone on it and Shave Ready and asked that he shave with it every day for one week, making sure that he was properly stropping and then send it back.

I didn't even need my loupe as I could see the 'dings' in the edge. That man had a beard of Brillo and that's why his edge was going south so soon.

I do hope this offers some help.

---

I agree, something else is wrong? Technique takes a long time and that includes the stropping. As far as the 4-8k, my grandfather shaved with a straight his entire life with a lot less than we have available in hones today. I doubt that his hones even went up to an 8

I've had some barber hones that left ~8K scratch patterns and were perfectly acceptable to shave off of.

Do what your mentor advises, once you know more that he does… then experiment with other techniques. By that time you will at least know one way to keep your razors shaving.

A pasted strop can revive an edge and keep it shaving a long, long time. Unless the edge is damaged, e.g. Chipped it does not need re honing.

I use a yellow Coticule, a clean linen and a clean leather strop. That's all. I get edges that pop arm hair not quite half way in the middle of the strands right off the rock. Then the strop makes my edges shave well and last a long time. My trips to the hone are infrequent but my clean, no abrasives added strops get regular work outs. Most of my shaves won't feel heat from my aftershave, only warmth. Pastes are messy. You can do this too.

Chasmo

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cudarunner

I have questions.

What kind of beard (as far as coarseness of the hair) do you consider yourself to have: A. Light B. Medium C. Heavy D. Compares to Steel Wool.

I would grade my beard as (B) Medium and even when I was a Newbie I got at least 60 shaves before my razor started tugging and I only had a Vintage leather strop with no cloth to help out.

I have run into guys with 'beards of Brillo' as I like to call them. One guy I was trying to help complained that his razor started 'tugging' after a week or so. So I loaned a razor out with a fresh hone on it and Shave Ready and asked that he shave with it every day for one week, making sure that he was properly stropping and then send it back.

I didn't even need my loupe as I could see the 'dings' in the edge. That man had a beard of Brillo and that's why his edge was going south so soon.

I do hope this offers some help.

---

this made me chuckle a little, the last week or so i have been looking at others in work or social circle from this very grading system (although i never thought to grade as brillo)
i am in the D classification myself and have been thinking recently "that would be so much more pleasant to shave" when looking at others facial hair.
It really never crossed my mind until last week how varied our facial hair is with the exception of when we start shaving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stev

this made me chuckle a little, the last week or so i have been looking at others in work or social circle from this very grading system (although i never thought to grade as brillo)
i am in the D classification myself and have been thinking recently "that would be so much more pleasant to shave" when looking at others facial hair.
It really never crossed my mind until last week how varied our facial hair is with the exception of when we start shaving.

---

Oh, trust me, as a clerk who has worked for a corporate chain for 35+ years, once I discovered using straight razors I too started looking at others beards/even when they were close to being clean shaven. I've even gone as far as asking how they shaved and then tell them about using a straight razor, not often, but a few times they show an interest. On occasion it's paid off. Feels great to start others down an old road to an older but better way of shaving.

If you are in the /Brillo category, you might try this that my good friend pinklather came up with to help the original Brillo bearded guy and that is to fold several layers of newspaper down and strop on that on your strop before cloth or leather, it seemed to help the original guy as it has a bit of an abrasive to it.

You never know until you try :shrug:

Thanks, i will certainly try that.

Just an update, i tryed the newspaper today and it did result in a much nicer shave.

thanks again cuda.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stev

Just an update, i tryed the newspaper today and it did result in a much nicer shave.

thanks again cuda.

---

Stev; I'm glad that it seems to help you. The newspaper has a slight abrasiveness to it. As I said, I can't take credit for this discovery pinklather told me about it.

If you would be interested in trying a near full wedge, email me as I'm currently working on a couple of 6/8's and should have them done in a week or two. While it may seem a long time to others I work at my own pace and if I feel like working on something then I work on it. If I feel like sitting on my arse and drinking beer then that's what I do. :rofl2::roflmao:rofl2::roflmao:rofl2::shrug:

All of your replies have been very helpful as usual. If it were not for all the knowledge on this forum I would still be mowing down my facial hair with electric clippers twice a month.

Beer always takes precedence :w

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Straightandproud

All of your replies have been very helpful as usual. If it were not for all the knowledge on this forum I would still be mowing down my facial hair with electric clippers twice a month.

---

THE POX ON ALL NON STRAIGHT OR DE RAZORS!!!!!!!!!!!! MAY THEY BE DAMNED TO HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY! hehehe

Also cuda, regarding the wedges, i would love to progress to a wedge at some point in the future and think they would suit my face more. I have just purchased my first real razor however and am on a bit of a budget for a while especially as i forgot to heed the word of many a wise person "buy cheap, buy twice" and ended up with what has been describe as a possibly a Pakistan special on my first purchase before heading over and buying a Dovo. Right away feedback from my first shave was telling me a heavier razor would be nice.