Getting started with honing

In taking up the art of straight razor shaving, I realize that besides a strop, a finishing stone and pasted strop some stones will most likely be needed to keep things in tip top shape. Otherwise I will need to rely on other sources to re-hone and sharpen my razor from time to time. I like to learn and to be self sufficient for the most part, so I would like to give it a try.

I do know how to sharpen knives, as I make them in my spare time. So I do have a few stones (common double sided), and some Diamond Sharpeners.

I do realize that there is a lot more finishing required with a straight razor. So I am looking to pick up some new stones for that as well.

I am looking at the Naniwa Super Stones and am trying to decide the Grits (thinking about 1k, 3k, 5k, 8k, 12k) along with a lapping stone and holder. Are these all necessary as I would like to avoid buying roughly $400 in sharpening stones if they are not really necessary. The site I am looking at has a set of 4,5,6 stones but they all include a 220 which I do not feel I need as it is probably similar to my current stones and definitely not needed for the Razor. Those sets all leave out the 8k as well, jumping from 3k to 10k or 5k to 12k.

I do definitely want the 12k stone

I also was looking at a site online, where they used a piece of Granite and some 3M abrasive sheets to sharpen.

Looking for some good advice on the subject.

I think you should read quite a few threads. There are new ones all the time on the subject as well as a giant archive of past ones. There are videos in the library that should be watched. There are a lot of opinions and varying techniques that all lead to the same place. What helped me was to take one thought train from one source and follow it until I understood what was happening and then practiced it until, well actually I am still practicing and learning, but I have a firm foundation. If you are somewhere where you can find a mentor to teach you how to hone, that would jump your learning up a whole lot faster. Your location is rather vague, the more specific you are about where you are the more you will be able to meet with other like minded people, and hopefully learn from their experience. I wouldn't be in any hurry to learn to hone, at least not until after your shave is well versed. Learning two things at once can be a little taxing. There is a lot of good advice here on the many aspects of straight razors and the related sundry items. In fact it may require a little filtering. Don't be afraid to PM people and ask questions, especially the staff. Sometime you may find yourself wanting only one opinion, to keep it simple. I should also point out that just because you shave with a straight does not mean that you are executed to be able to hone it. It is an expensive aspect of this hobby. For the price of hone you could get a pro honing for a long long time.

Honing should be low on the leaning list for a beginner, stropping and shaving should be higher on the list. When you get ready for honing you can't go wrong with a Norton 4k/8k and a Chinese 12k or a Naniwa 12k. This will probably maintain a already shave ready razor for life. If you get into antique store/ebay razors you will need a 1k and probably a lower grit. A CrOx pasted paddle is also a very useful tool to have along with a barber hone.

For what it is worth, I currently have 3 "different" honing setups:

-DMT 1200 followed by coticule(s)
-DMT 1200 followed by an oil stone, followed by a CrOx strop
-local slate with varying levels of slurry

The first two setups give me consistent results on most razor blades and the local slate is hit or miss... it works better with old silver steel, India steel or old tools. The local slate slurry excels at removing rust, so I am using it a lot on my hand tools or as a first stone on rusty razors. It also successfully put a bevel on a razor that had been baffling me for years.

Tech you just started ,, please learn to shave first and strop well, it takes many shaves to become good at it , this way you will know if your edge is right , then take up maintaining a blade ,, pastes or the 12 k will do it and also a barbers hone is even less money, As rezdog said you can get quite a few pro honing so done for what a set of stones cost and if your not restoring razors ,well after you learn to shave and strop , honings are few and far between ,, I,m doing this for over a year now , and I still don't hone , and I shave with the finest edges around, have sent my razors off twice , the first time out it was my stropping ,, So just a few words of wisdom , here , Tc

Wow, lots of "don't do it yet" posts. Personally I have no issue learning more that one thing at a time, actually I believe that I thrive when doing so. And yes, I understand that I should concentrate on the shaving rather than the honing.

Wasn't planning on honing my Razor, at all. Actually I bought the one I shave with on the Classifieds here and I believe the seller stated one free honing came with it. I also already dealt with another member here who I trust, and will gladly have him hone for me again.

I have been watching the video's and reading the posts on maintaining your razor, and one such that I found stated to strop till it doesn't shave well anymore, then touch up with the 12k, and move to a pasted strop and back to normal strop. I've been shaving now for close a month and haven't done anything other than strop and shave. Still doing well.

I do have the interest in learning to hone, so when I order the 12k stone, and crox paste. I might as well go ahead and buy a hone set or the stones to make one up. I also love to go to flea markets, antique stores, "picking" so I sure will be keeping an eye out for Razors to practice with, also read that one way to learn is to buy 3 Gold Dollar razors or similar and practice on the first two, then when ready attempt the third and give it a try.

There are two types of people in my opinion, those who pay $20 for someone to do it for them when necessary, and those who spend $400 on the tools necessary and put forth hours and hours of time learning to do it for themselves. I am the second one.

The Gold Dollars are reputed to have geometry issues. If you want to learn on crooked razors then those are the ones to get. I think you should get an inexpensive vintage or two in nice shape. The come up in the classified here often for 30 to 50 and I think they are prime candidates. Basically you are going to waste a little extra steel getting the hand motions figured out. I don't think they will get ruined and there is no reason not to start with a razor that you should be able to get a great edge on with no geometry issues. Start from a known good spot and you will know what is happening. Start from a sketchy spot and...

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Originally Posted by technoid

There are two types of people in my opinion, those who pay $20 for someone to do it for them when necessary, and those who spend $400 on the tools necessary and put forth hours and hours of time learning to do it for themselves. I am the second one.

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Tech
I lean toward the latter one myself, this is why I bought some crap razors to learn, I already have 220/1k and 4k/8k stones, I use them for my knifes, I like really sharp knifes. I am new to this whole SR thing myself, but I want to learn every aspect of it just because I like to learn. Till i can bring a "crap razor" to a shave-able edge I will be sending my 2 razors out to hone as needed. I would recomend looking on you tube for Lynn Abrams videos on the subject, not that my opinion holds any weight as I am a newb, but Lynn from what I understand is a God at honing razors. Lots of luck with your endeavors.

Are we talking honing or shaving here!

Oh, and I'm western PA so if there is anyone in the area that would like to share their knowledge, I'm Game.

I kinda thought that was the point of honing, to take a razor that has issues (will not shave properly), and make it a usable razor.
Apart from a razor that is improperly ground, nearly any razor should be able to be honed. Even junk steel razors should be able to be honed, although the finished product may not hold an edge.

If a vintage razor is available cheaply then yes, and as I stated I will be watching for them.

For the shaving, I will only be buying razors that are worth while, and I do now know several people on this forum that I trust enough to bounce a potential purchase from.

FYI. Gold Dollar post was from http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...0-12000-a.html by member iceni

I know a to of guys say to learn to hone on a razor shaped object. In my mind the end game is to get an edge to a point where you can achieve a comfortable shave, and then repeat it. If you are using a razor that you don't expect to ever be able to shave with exactly what are trying to achieve. In learning to hone I shaved with my razors to judge how good the edge is or in some cases how bad is was. I'm not saying don't do it, simply that I don't understand the point to it. I practiced on razor i wanted to shave with and did. Are you going to shave with an RSO, if the shave is bad how will you know what was good and bad about the honing. Will the RSO have grind, geometry issues. That was all I was saying. It sounds like you have a network you can go to to avoid pitfalls. Happy shaves.

Unless buying a reasonable number of razors that need to be honed from bevel up I can't see the need for a whole lot of stones. You probably already have a 1k equivalent and possibly a 3/4/5k equivalent stone. If so get the 8k and learn that first. That said if you buy shave ready razors a 12k and pasted strop are going to be all that you need unless you damage one. I would suggest that you start with the refresh first and that will give you time to learn to shave and do more research

Welcome Technoid: I combined learning to shave with a S.R. and how to maintain (sharpen) my razors at the same time. Did I make mistakes? (Yes). I also wanted to become self sufficient and not send my razors out for honing. I received lots of valuable advice on how to shave, hone and strop my razors from the members at SRP. I chose the Shapton Glass route and (Lynn's youtube video and CD were invaluable for learning.) If you already sharpen and maintain your knifes adding razors to the mix will not be that difficult.

If you want to learn how to hone razors, my advice would be decide which direction you want to go. How much money do you want to spend in the beginning. Learning to use lapping film on granite floor tile will be the least expensive route. Many shavers maintain their razors edge with just a #1 micron sheet of lapping film and a strop. There are excellent videos on youtube detailing how to hone with natural or synthetic stones, also lapping film. It's up to you to decide which direction to go, the members of SRP will gladly offer their advice in order for you to become successful.

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Originally Posted by technoid

I kinda thought that was the point of honing, to take a razor that has issues (will not shave properly), and make it a usable razor.

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Yes, but it's the same as saying the point of car repair is to take a car that has issues (will not run) and make it drive.
That may range from putting in some gas to rebuilding the whole car engine, body, transmission...

Well, honing is nothing as complicated it's just rubbing a razor on some abrasive, but there is still pretty significant difference between maintaining your already shaving razor to keep shaving and taking a piece of poorly ground steel or well rusted one and getting it to shave. I mean at certain point it's simpler to start from scratch and just grind a razor from a steel bar.

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Originally Posted by technoid

Apart from a razor that is improperly ground, nearly any razor should be able to be honed. Even junk steel razors should be able to be honed, although the finished product may not hold an edge.

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Junk razors can not be honed. You need a steel that is hard at least in the mid 50s Rockwell and has fine enough grain or you will have a knife type object that may 'cut' through some stuff, but will never be suitable for shaving.
That 'holding an edge' lingo seems to have come from people with little experience with honing and can offer only speculations of how bad 'razors' behave. In real life the steel simply can not support sharp enough edge - it's not a matter of creating an edge which then fails during the first stroke, the problem is that it crumbles before it gets in the range of necessary geometry.


So, you need to answer the real question - what kind of honing are you planning to do.
If you want to only maintain your razors after they are honed once then get that naniwa 12k that you want to get and you're done.

If you want to restore razors that come off ebay or antique shops then you need 1k level hone and then something in the 4k level and something in the 8k level (you can sometimes mix and match manufacturers, but if you don't your life will be easier).
3k->10k is a big jump that you should not attempt at this point and the one you want is 5k->8k, but if you have to alter one of them do 3k->8k because you already said you're getting the 12k.

Technoid,


Here's the setup I would start out with: Norton 1k, and 4/8k combo, This setup is good enough to start out with all on it's own. If I had to purchase again I would change getting the combo to just a 4k and an 8k
Want to take it a step further get a Naniwa 12k and some cRox

This will allow you to set bevels and polish to a finished edge

I understand being self sufficient , I really do , but no one is , you go to the grocery store , you buy your computer parts and you go to the gas station and fill up your car , and buy your clothes and shoes, so let's really say what it is ,, you just want the hones ,, not need them. ,, I say buy all you want ,, now enjoy your shaves , don't make it difficult and you will find that after 100 or more shaves it's all about getting a good shave , not about anything else unless your just a collector wanting to sell them. Tc

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Originally Posted by Trimmy72

Technoid,


Here's the setup I would start out with: Norton 1k, and 4/8k combo, This setup is good enough to start out with all on it's own. If I had to purchase again I would change getting the combo to just a 4k and an 8k
Want to take it a step further get a Naniwa 12k and some cRox

This will allow you to set bevels and polish to a finished edge

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Excellent path.

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Originally Posted by gugi

So, you need to answer the real question - what kind of honing are you planning to do.
If you want to only maintain your razors after they are honed once then get that naniwa 12k that you want to get and you're done.

If you want to restore razors that come off ebay or antique shops then you need 1k level hone and then something in the 4k level and something in the 8k level (you can sometimes mix and match manufacturers, but if you don't your life will be easier).
3k->10k is a big jump that you should not attempt at this point and the one you want is 5k->8k, but if you have to alter one of them do 3k->8k because you already said you're getting the 12k.

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I would go along with that and I did. I use all Naniwa Super Stones in a progression of 1K, 3k, 8K and 12K followed by a Crox pasted balsa strop to try and bring old razors to shave ready.

If you are going to do a lot of old razors I would consider getting the thick,2cm/20mm, versions of the hones as opposed to the thin,1cm/10mm ones. At a minimum the thick version of the 1K as it will be your work horse in setting bevels on those old razors.

Whatever way you decide to go have fun at honing. It is an aspect of shaving with a straight razor that I am surprised that I enjoy now. It was plenty frustrating in the beginning though but I had no real experience in sharpening anything.

Bob

Thanks to all who posted. The answer to the question posted above is Both. I want to be able to maintain my own razors, and also to refurbish any new ones I may find in the future. Possibly even making one from scratch in the distant future as well. As stated I already make knives and may just want to try something new with those skills. I know that what I have learned already with the SR, using and studying it I have learned to put a much keener edge on my knives as well, and that is just altering my technique a little from what I have learned here.

I actually have in my online shopping cart the 1k, 5k, 8k, 12k stones, a lapping stone, and holder. I was looking for the recommendations here as to the progression, although a recommended set from an external site, is 1k, 3k, 5k, 12k.

BTW. Those are all actually 3/4 inch thick stones (~20mm)

The recommendations elsewhere are to skip the 8k, and those on here are to skip the 5k

I agree, on the enjoyment part too, I find working with knives to be relaxing.

Either will work with some skill but our recommendation will work better and easier. The gap between the 5k and 12 is rather large. I am not going to get into too many details of the relationship between grit rating and abrading ability of these hones, but just consider that these numbers are not entirely random and not knowing anything else other that you need a progression to be effective the most sensible labeling is evenly spaced numbers rather than irregularly spaced ones.

You can certainly hone any razor including ones with chips using only the 12k hone (after all it's just removal of steel at a particular rate), but you will be spending so much time that you will do it at most once.


I have these hones and know how they work thus I would bet good money that I have honed at least an order of magnitude more razors than the person who is recommending you the 1-3-5-12 progression.

To prove it here are some numbers for these particular hones: 1k to 5k or 5k to 8k does'n take more than 10-100 strokes on 99.99% of the razors. 8k->12k is 5-20 strokes.
You can decrease the number of strokes by inserting intermediate grit hones, but at certain point switching hones takes longer than just doing more strokes with a fewer hones and larger gaps in the progression.

I'm sure you can guess or figure out what happens with the number of strokes if you instead skip a grit level, hence my previous inclination to betting.

Thanks Gugi, for the numbers on the progression. It looks like my initial thoughts were correct and I plan to go forward with the 1k, 5k, 8k, 12k order.

The 1,3,5,12 recommendation is actually a set as sold on the site, where I located the stones. Looks as though they want to attempt to sway you into purchasing the set to "save money" knowing that you will need to purchase an additional stone to complete the set. Therefore spending more that if you had just bought the correct sequence of stones to begin with, and skipped a few of the lesser needed stones.

Conspiracy theory!!!!!

Anyway, thanks again to everyone for their advice on the topic.

Any 1K, and a Norton 4/8 combo stone is all you need to get started or grit equivalent. Double sided combo stones are a great value.

Buy a quality stone, Norton, Chosera, Naniwa Super Stone or King to shorten the learning curve, knowing the stones will not be an issue.

Aluminum Oxide Film is also a good alternative 3 and 1um, 1um is about 16K, using a 1k diamond plate as a bevel setter. Inexpensive and a quick great edge.

Learning to hone can be done while learning to shave, it just can be frustrating as learning to shave requires a keen and comfortable edge. The comfort part is where most knife folks get into problems.

The 1,5,8,12K or 1,3 will work very well.