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So I just got my Norton 4K/8K waterstone. It has been lapped and is ready to get started with my first hone project. I have a 5/8 carbon steel razor that needs a "touchup". I have watched Lynn Abram's video on the Circle method and read everything I can find on the Pyramid method. my question is this.... Which is better for a touchup and which would be better for an Ebay razor?
How have you determined that you ONLY need a touch-up? Are you sure that there is a proper bevel set on the edge? Determining which method to use would depend on an accurate assessment of the edge.
Good question! This particular razor was honed professionally as a new razor. I know that the Honemaster did not use tape on the spine. That is all that I know for sure. Should I assume that I need to set the bevel?
You say that the razor was professionally honed. Have you tried to shave with the razor to know if is properly honed?
I have approx. 30 shaves with this razor. It still shaves adequately but not as well as it did. Where I am not terribly clear is the method of touching up vs a complete overhaul. The circle method looks like a good way to aggressively set a bevel with the 4k then polish with 6-8 light x strokes on the 8k. although the pyramid method looks like it might be better to touchup. I have not tried either. I am pretty good with my hands and have confidence I will pick this up quickly, but want to start correctly. So... which method would be better suited to a touchup?
So... which method would be better suited to a touchup?
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Probably the circle method. Try that and if not, try the pyramid .
Great! Thanks for the input. I will try it tonight.
I like the pyramid method for refreshing a razor myself, after your 4K - 8K Norton what do you finally finish on? I don't use Norton hones so I refresh using my Chosera 5K then my Naniwa Snow white 8K then finish with 30 light strokes on the Naniwa 12K.
Is that your only razor ? What I did was keep my pro honed razors away from hones until I got fair to middlin with ebay specials (in good shape). I would suggest 4 or 5 x-strokes lightly on the 8k and strop and shave. See where that leaves it. If that doesn't do it try a small pyramid is what I would do.
It is my first razor. I have been shaving with it exclusively since I started on this addictive journey. I recently purchased a vintage 11/16 Robeson Shuredge. it is in good shape but not shave ready. I need to touch up my old standby and then move on to the minor restoration. Just thought it might be smart to try the light duty work before I jump into the deep end. If I know me, I will have ten of these things in no time. I have in the last few weeks finally achieved a very good shave on a regular basis. That is why I have moved on to this stage in the game.
Less is more with touch ups. If your blade is dull in only 30 shaves then it probably just needs a great stropping session :<0)
Robeson made a darn good razor. Get some form of magnification, eye loupe 20 or 30x works, a microscope @ 40x is real good too. Check for the evenness of the bevel, any micro chips. Use a sharpie or magic marker and paint the bevel. Do a few X strokes on the 4k and see if your stroke is making contact all the way from point to heel. If it is, wipe residue of the marker off and set the bevel. Once the bevel is set with a positive TNT do another 10 X strokes and then start the pyramid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightandproud
Do the pyramid over again if the razor ain't up to snuff when you're done. Circles are fine if you've already learned to hone, but I think they have the potential to remove too much too soon if you're not experienced. Oh, and use one layer of electrical tape on the spine when you are starting out honing. Once you feel confident in your honing either continue to use tape, or let it go by the wayside. Until then your spines will thank you for using tape. Just IMHO.
If only touching up a shave ready razor I would only be doing 6 - 10 light strokes on the 8k followed by a good stropping. Good luck
Spot on advice by Jim and Jerry.
1. Strop, first
2. Look at the edge with magnification
3. Touch up on high grit stone.
Before you put your once shave ready razor on a stone, strop that puppy 100 laps then shave it, if still lacking try a 100 more. Keep the spine on the strop.
Do not hone a razor, if you do not have magnification…
Look at the edge, with magnification you may have other issues and a 2-3 dollar loupe will tell you and determine the course of action.
Before you put the Pro honed razor on a stone, if the stropping does not bring the edge back and a magnified examination does not show any major chipping, pick up a flat Barber Hone, for touchups, 5-10 dollars. A touch up is a very light high grit, finish honing, just a few laps lite laps on a very high grit stone to bring back, just the edge.
Once a razor has been Bevel Set, fully honed and shaving well, you should be able to easily able to revive the edge, without a full Bevel Set Re-hone. I fear you may do more damage than good, and it really should not need much.
Mr Lynn Abrams explains how to use various methods to refresh a razor in this video, which I found to be very useful myself. He talks about using a small pyramid to refresh around minute 16:00. His demo is with the Naniwa 8k & 5k, but the same could easily be done with a Norton 4/8 combo.
Straight Razor Honing-Refreshing Straight Razors:
Straight Razor Honing-Refreshing Straight Razors - YouTube
Hope this helps
Apples and oranges.
They are not the same thing.
Pyramids and circles are as comparable as green and 12.
Pyramids are a sequence of strokes on alternating hones while circles are a particular type of stroke. Sorry, but they are not comparable.
If the razor was pro-honed and shaved well but no longer does, then start with a minimal effort first, as the odds are good that that is all that is necessary to bring the razor back. Try 5 to 10 strokes on the Norton 8k, then strop and shave. If that brings it back, then you are good to go. If not, then try it again. Only if it fails again should you consider dropping down to a 4k, which really should not be necessary for a touch-up. 10 to 20 strokes on a 4k followed by 10 to 15 strokes on an 8k should be all you need. I don't think you need to bother with either pyramids or circles, or apples or oranges.
Utopian's advice is solid. This is more or less the method I use for refreshing; sometimes I start at a 12k hone but the Norton 8k is capable of producing a first rate shaving edge - with appropriate stropping of course.
I stropped it 100 laps and no real difference on last night's shave. Acceptable but not great. Just gave it 10 passes on the Norton 8k and it popped the hairs on my arm like when it was new from the honemaster. I will give it a good stropping and try it out on my next shave.
Going to try and help another Idahoan out here
We have two meets in the area each year I promise they are worth the time and effort to make it to at least one you will learn more about SR's in one day then months of asking questions on here
send a PM to Sean tell him Glen sent ya :)
http://straightrazorpalace.com/members/seanreum1.html
Sean is a bit ahead of you with honing maybe you and he could sit down and work though some razors together
If you are coming up to the Northwoods anytime soon fire me a PM and I would be happy to sit down over a cup of coffee or a cold beer and teach you about honing, in fact maybe you and Sean could head this way together
Bingo! Don't miss an op to sit at a meet-up. Pyramids are used by beginners, the Circle method by intermediate users, and a simple sequential method is used by experienced practitioners. Once a razor is appropriately honed, it does not need to be "honed" ever again. It is only "updated" by light strokes on a high grit stone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightandproud
Purchase of a professional honing of a razor can be money well spent. It takes more knowledge than most people possess, but a honed razor, barber hone, and strop, should keep you shaving for a life time. There is no need for further honing until you chip it.
That's a great question...I've been struggling with that one meself. What was the result?
Shaved with that razor for the first time since the hone and the shave was decent. Not as good as my professionally honed straight but not too bad. I think I can do better though. Will be playing with it further.
So now I have accepted that I need to move to the next step. After the last shave I re-honed my razor on the 8k Norton with 10 more laps. water displacement was pretty good on the stone and I do need to work on making my strokes smoother but I thought it went well. Looked at the edge under a machinist's loupe and it looks clean. Stropped it 75 laps and test shaved it again. Still not that sharp. The shave was pretty rough. no nicks or cuts but had to put too much pressure to get thru the hair. I think I will try the 1/3, 1/5 pyramid method next. Also, how much stropping do you recommend after a touch up hone?
Back in the day it was said that the #1 reason for a honed razor not being "there" was an inadequate bevel set. The foundation of the rest of the job. Perhaps check your bevel set. Not saying that is definitely the source of the problem, but I've found that starting from square one has worked for me with problem razors in the past.
The 1961 barber manual recommends stropping on leather only following honing. I don't recall a specific number of round trips, but I might do 30 or 50 ....... whatever. Speaking with Lynn not long ago, he does linen/leather following honing. I don't recall the number of passes. I started following suit, usually 50/50, but it is a matter of experimenting. All of this honing stuff is trail and error IME. :gl:
One of the hardest things for novice to learn is how to strop properly. It could very-well be you are refreshing the edge on the hone, but damaging it on the strop.
Put a layer of tape on the spine, if you taped originally, it put two. Do 4-6 laps on your highest grit stone and look at the edge. Are the bevels meeting?
If so, now strop it 30-50 laps, now look at the edge, did you damage it? If not shave it.
If you damaged the edge by stropping, it is either your strop or you technique. Keep the spine on the strop, go slow, and stop before you flip.
An extra layer of tape is a great, quick way to touch up an edge.
2-4 laps, creates a micro bevel, depending on the stone can make a very fine new Micro bevel and can be done 2-3 times, depending on the stone and edge. After that you will have to re hone completely to flatten the bevel and start over.
It only works if the edge has very little damage or micro-chips. Any more laps and you are just honing with 2 layers of tape creating a fatter angle and wider bevel. And some times, that is just what you need, like for an edge that is chippy or a very worn spine that has too steep an angle.
It works very well, with hard Arks, Thurigans slates, and even 12k super stones, any fine, high grit stone. On film, with paper, that is what you are doing, except you are creating a cushion/deflection where the edge of the bevel is being polished with less bite.
Update.
Major bummer!!
Last night I sat down with razor and hone with the mindset that I would be shaving with this razor "tonight". Well... didn't happen. And I admit that it was my ignorance that defeated me. I decided to give the 1/3 1/5 pyramid technique a whirl. On my first stroke with the 4k I hit a gritty spot on the stone about half way down and put a nick in the edge. DONE!!!!
Now before I get a "you have to lap a new stone" speech, I have already done that. But I will also admit that I only took .025" off the 4k side when I lapped it. Seems that the 4k side needs to have some more meat taken off and I need to start over with a bevel set. 1 step forward and 10 steps back. Now I seem to remember hearing from a certain someone that he recommends taking .125" off of the 4k side when new. I just couldn't bring myself to waste that much stone. Well talk about learning the hard way.
I felt defeated and beat down and had to resort to hair removal with my professionally honed razor.
But...... today is a new day.
One of the hardest things when learning how to hone and one of the things that will cause an edge to fail is using too much pressure. Not like you are already not having to learn to keep the spine and edge on the stone at the same time and use even pressure with either circles or X strokes, once the bevel is set, learning to use weight of the blade only pressure is key. It really is a balancing act to keep the blade flat on the stone and only push and pull it. This is really critical when refreshing and in the final steps of honing. Once you fix the nicks and reset the bevel, try to keep this in mind. The stones will do the work for you.
Another thought is that the more you try sometimes, the more frustrating it can be. When you hit this point, it is always better to walk away, even if only for a few minutes.
Have fun.
Thanks for the reply Lynn.
Having read your advice I am inclined to believe that this is my bad technique rather than an improperly lapped hone. It grabbed so aggressively that I just assumed it was a gritty spot. I have an idea. If I were to lightly stroke a precision machinists steel parallel, +/- .001 flat, down the length of the hone it might locate any possible rough spots, or prove that my technique just plain sucks. either way I MUST know.
I am far from being an expert but two things were suggested to me. A properly prepared hone will reflect light at a more or less 15° angle. No reflection - don't use. Second, no more weight on the blade as obtained from a butterfly. The third thing suggested was you'll never be perfect, keep learning.
Well It took me three tries but I sorted it out. Soaked my Norton and sat down with patience on my side. To test for rough spots I swept an old used D.E. blade across the 4K side without any sign of roughness. Lynn, you were right. Proof that my technique is to blame. Then I tried the circle method to re-establish my bevel. In the end I got a very good shave that compared to my pro honed straight. This is one of the things that I really appreciate about the straight razor shave. The feeling of accomplishment along with the resurrection of an old school skill and a damn fine shave as icing on the cake.
Thanks for helping me thru this.