question about using a BBW/Coticule combo

I have a natural BBW/Coticule combination hone. I read somewhere that a BBW has about half the garnet content of a coticule. I also read a rating of the BBW at about 6k grit.

Here's the question: if the BBW has the same abrasive particles as the coticule (garnets), and if the BBW has half the number of such particles, does the BBW ultimately produce the same level of smoothness as the coticule, only taking twice as long?

Or, alternatively, is the abrasive effect of the BBW simply at a lower grit level, for some reason?

Here's an example of a practical application of that question: If I have set the bevel at 1K and also used a 4k grit stone (Chinese in this case), would it be practical to go through the BBW before hitting the coti?

I also have a Welsh 8K (Dragon's tongue) and have been most often going through this progression: 1K (Chosera), 4K (Chinese), 8K (Dragon's Tongue), coticule or Thuringian, Charnley Forest. (I also sometimes finish on the Thuringian or even on a Welsh 12K or Chinese 12K).

Joe

I guess the big question is, what is it you do on your coticule? I would think you would do a dulicut coming from a 4K level hone, right? if you use only water I think going to your BBW would be adventagious otherwise not so much.

The general consensus is that a BBW is not realy usefull if you also have a yellow coticule. It would be usefull if your favorite yellow coticule is becomming realy thin, than you could decide to use a BBW for most of the work and only finish on your favorite yellow

a BBW has fewer garnets and those garnets are a bit bigger on average the those of your yellow coti. the main thing you need to acomplish is to get out the 1K and 4K scratches, after which al of those stone could be usefull finishers depending on your taste, aperantly even the BBW finish can be shaved with

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Originally Posted by Bram

I guess the big question is, what is it you do on your coticule? I would think you would do a dulicut coming from a 4K level hone, right? if you use only water I think going to your BBW would be adventagious otherwise not so much.

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I've never come straight from a 4K stone to a coti. I go from 4K to a Welsh DT, usually graded at around 8K, but with a wide range of cutting depending on the slurry. Typically, I'll run from thick slurry through pure water on all the stones.

What I did on the last razor I honed was to go from the 4K to the BBW, then to the coti, and finally to a Thuringian. Worked well, but I don't know if it was was the most efficient way to do it. Going from 4K to DT (8K) to coti also works pretty well

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a BBW has fewer garnets and those garnets are a bit bigger on average the those of your yellow coti.

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Ah, I had not previously heard that the garnets in the BBW are on average a bit bigger than those of the yellow coti. That would seem to make sense of the fact that the BBW seems to work pretty well in a progression from 4K to BBW to coti.

Thanks for the feedback!

Joe

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Originally Posted by carrolljc

Typically, I'll run from thick slurry through pure water on all the stones.

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it seems like you are doing a lot of double work while honing, I usually go from 3K directly to a thick coticule slurry and dilute till clear water, after this I strop and shave, if I had a nice esher or black arkensas I would use that afterwards but then only on water or oil...

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Originally Posted by Bram

it seems like you are doing a lot of double work while honing, I usually go from 3K directly to a thick coticule slurry and dilute till clear water, after this I strop and shave, if I had a nice esher or black arkensas I would use that afterwards but then only on water or oil...

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A couple of people have told me of a different variation--they go directly from the 1K to the Dragon's tongue, using a thick slurry and diluting to water, and then to a finishing stone.

I suspect that if one uses fewer stones, just three, one spends more time on the last two stones. But I'll have to try the direct from 4K to coti and see how that works. I have done the progression from 1K to 8K to finishing stone, and that will get me there. At present, I'm preferring a little more gradation in between stones, but as I said I'm not convinced this is necessary or efficient. I'll just have to continue experimenting and getting a better feel for it.

This webpage tells you the difference between a BBW and an coticule: http://www.ardennes-coticule.be/en/p...whetstone.html

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Originally Posted by Kees

This webpage tells you the difference between a BBW and an coticule: http://www.ardennes-coticule.be/en/p...whetstone.html

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Thanks for that. I see they describe it as at about 4K. I read somewhere else 6K. Looks as if it would work fine as a stone intermediate between the 1K and the 8K, if one wants to fill that gap.

From everything I have read the bbw is around 4k so you are doing that twice. The a coticule is usually 8k equivalent and so is the dt so your doing that twice as well. It does vary coticule to coticule but not that much you shouldn't be able to miss hones out of your current progression. For your finisher the thuri would usually be considered higher than the coticule and equivalent to the c12 or charnley. Just seems you are doing the same thing twice a lot. Do you have a 8 and 12 synthetic and magnification. If so do some scratch pattern testing and try to find what your stones are equivalent to as with naturals each stone is ymmv

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Originally Posted by eddy79

From everything I have read the bbw is around 4k so you are doing that twice. The a coticule is usually 8k equivalent and so is the dt so your doing that twice as well. It does vary coticule to coticule but not that much you shouldn't be able to miss hones out of your current progression. For your finisher the thuri would usually be considered higher than the coticule and equivalent to the c12 or charnley. Just seems you are doing the same thing twice a lot. Do you have a 8 and 12 synthetic and magnification. If so do some scratch pattern testing and try to find what your stones are equivalent to as with naturals each stone is ymmv

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Testing the scratch pattern sounds like a good idea. I've heard the coticule described as 8K, 10K, and 12K. Some professional honers go from the 8K synthetic to the coticule for finishing. My impression--only an impression--is that one of my coticules is fairly close to the Dragon's Tongue (8K), and the other closer to the Charnley Forest, Thuringian, or Chinese or Welsh 12K.

I gave up on the synthetics a while back. Kept getting metal chips embedded in the stone and putting nicks in the edge. But they could be useful for basic comparison.

Coticules do come in a bit of various ranges. The one I have is around 7to8 k mark. Others are much higher and some even lower. Never heard of metal chips in a hone before. Using my synthetic hones is how I figured out my naturals grit. Would hone on say 8k the on coticule. See if it gets better or worse and just play around till you know what range it is in

Some BBW can be much faster than others. I have had a few pieces that could set a bevel as fast as doing it on a decent coticule. They are naturals so the grit can vary but you can get a good shave off of a BBW but on most it takes a while to get there. Most I have encountered are slow but give a decent polish.