Printable View
Just picked this up from 330 and I think I like it. Fairly small working area and needed a bit of DMT work, but I think this is an interesting and overlooked stone.
Attachment 189125
Attachment 189126
Attachment 189127
I know opinions are mixed on low grit naturals for razors. In fact, I bought this for shaping work on knife blades, but with some slurry off a DMT 325 it cuts pretty well. Look out for su.
cheap white binsui from chefknivestogo is a good bevel setter, and fast, but it's a bit sloppy.
I have a grayish iyo, its like nagura, except not scratchy like coarse nagura. good between binsui and suita.
only thing i know about JNAT's is most of them are pretty stones !!
nice hunk of rock you have there !!
I haven't used a binsui but I have had them in my hands. Seems similar... Some inclusions, hard and almost like a cross between porcelain, mikawa nagura and coral.
Attachment 189134
Attachment 189135
I was using heavy pressure and getting good cutting but very fine scratches. By contrast, my Chosera 400 felt similar but left major chips in this home-forged O1 blade. The Chosera 1000 was better, and similar in cutting speed, but the Chosera was better if I'm honest: more real estate, consistent, smooth, free of inclusions, etc. Still, I like it.
Attachment 189136
In retrospect, the chips may have been due to the DMT 220 which seems to fracture the edge on big diamonds, and the Chosera 400 catches on the carbides as well.
Anyway, the iyoto seems to glass over a bit. I may have to scuff it up with 80 grit sandpaper or something.
Attachment 189182
Attachment 189183
Yeah, binsui is more porous and softer and lets go of grit more easily.
I have only had two of the binsui/arato, but they are not similar to the hard iyos that fujibato sells. I think the hard iyos are a good stone prior to a fast finisher, but the binsui and arato are more like 600-1000 type stones in terms of finishing speed, and both of mine will shed grit under tools pretty easily (maybe not quite so readily under a razor, but they'd refresh easily and they are too porous to glaze over like the hard iyos will. Hard iyos work better with a slurry stone.)
Yup. Not a great bevel setter it turns out. The slurry is powerful but hard as hell to raise without a diamond plate, and the stone gets glassy.
Can be used to erase coarser honing scratches but probably works against the sharpness of the cutting edge, so this stone is probably more useful for knives than razors.
The more I hear about these, the more variable they sound. the one bad thing about a bunch of loose particles of various sizes floating around is that inevitably, some of them will be quite large (the particles) and upon bevel set, they will leave scratches just up from the bevel, and those will not be removed by a subsequent step. It's no real threat, but it's unsightly. I believe I've set one bevel with my binsui, but most of the binsuis others have described seem unsuitable for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atchbo
At any rate, I find a slurried arkansas stone (something like an old soft arkansas or a hard arkansas) a better bevel setter, and to be my favorite bevel setter of all. They are common, too. I also think the ability to use oil makes a coarse stone work a lot better - it doesn't have to constantly shed particles to avoid loading like a coarse waterstone does.
The razor you showed has large facets, I can understand where many natural stones would run out of steam (the particles are just not the right combination of hard and sharp to reach deep on a large surface), but the aspect you described is there with synthetic stones, that they can do the deep work but then leave damage on the edge.
Maybe not so much variable as need to be understood, and used the right way. I'll keep this stone and use it in future, likely in a progression with my aoto for knives, and maybe some other messing around. I only wish it was a full hone size so more normal strokes/technique could be used.
Good you found out this without spending a lot of money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atchbo
It has been established that there are no J-Nat bevel setters in existence. They are either too slow or they chip the edges.
...or sadly, both!
If Botan counts as a bevel setter they work great if you get a koppa sized piece. More in the 3kish range so not for real heavy work but if you are doing regular hollow ground blades you can get a bevel set with just a few slurry refreshes.
Botan is a pretty expensive option though, mine was near $300 and not that big. Great for circles and such but back and forth feels a little short. Botan koppa with botan tomo slurry leaves a really nice edge though which is easily refined.
I would consider it more of a bevel refresher than a full on setter.
Not good enough for bevel setter. Botan is very hard to find as the stock is depleted, currently what is available is Yae Botan and it is not good either.Quote:
Originally Posted by DireStraights
Bevel setters should be able to tackle blades that have issues and a J-Nat will definitely not be able to remove frowns and medium sized chips within reasonable time, not to mention correct messed up wedges.
Yep, I love my Chosera 1k.
However, all of this begs the question: what did the Japanese use for kamisori initial bevels before the advent of synthetics?
Anyway, I have what I need now.
My guess is, a slow coarse natural of some kind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atchbo
Did you read my post buddy? I said it is not for heavy work and can only really remove material from full hollows.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
As I said botan is more of a refresher, I still felt it worth mentioning as it really does add to my repertoire. It may not be good for repairs or severe steel removal but it does have a place early on in progression.
Botan is more an option for those with HAD. If you are the type to buy more stones than needed Botan can actually add something valuable to your progression. I like being able to avoid the whole 3k/5k/8k progression after bevel setting, which botan can accomplish.
For the record I usually go 1k to botan because as you said it doesn't remove enough steel. It is great for those razors that come "almost" there, and it leaves a scratch pattern that is easily removed by finer stones.
My chosera 1k is my go to steel eater and bevel setter so I hope no one thinks I'm saying a 1k isn't necessary as they are very important.
I am not your buddy, that kind of condescending tone you can take somewhere else, it does not belong on SRP.Quote:
Originally Posted by DireStraights
The post is about certain J-Nat as a bevel setter. Bevel setter is a stone that is needed to set bevels on a razor of any grind and condition, as long as it is not shot beyond hope. You are talking about a hone that one buys because of HAD, and that does not bring anything different to the table other than spending more than on a set of 3/5/8k synthetics and is slower too.
I don't have much real estate on my botan, and whether I have HAD is very much open for debate, but I sure like mine. I could see it being helpful/enjoyable in koppa size after a bevel setter, but just what that natural bevel setter would have been (in a Japanese progression) was what I was after.
In context, besides the scarcity of carbon steel in the form of tamahagane, I can imagine it would make life easier creating kamisori from softer steel except for the actual cutting edge, especially without heavy synthetic cutters. My homemade creations in O1 would have taken a lifetime just to shape if all I had was botan.
Wow... I was trying to be friendly. That was pretty uncalled for.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Don't sweat it, guys. Email/forums are tone deaf.
I chased the natural bevel setter for a while but never found anything that I really liked so I shifted gears and started looking for a natural to put directly behind the chosera 1k. Botan works well for this, so does my striped iyoto but my favorite stone for this so far is a Hakka. Slurried it easily wipes away 1k scratches and paves the way for whatever I use next.
I think someone may have misspoke. Just leave it as that and move on.
What you guys are missing using botans and such as a bevel setter is how good arkansas stones interchange with jnats.
Your dream bevel setter to go before a middle stone is no more complicated or expensive than just getting one of the inexpensive soft stones from natural whetstone. Slurry it with a diamond hone on one side and flip it over and less pressure on the other and it'll be ready for a nagura progression or a prefinisher and then a finisher.
You use a Hakka on razors? I haven't tried that yet, but just got my hands on a koppa sized one from JNS. I love it. Don't know why it had not occurred to me to try it on a razor. It's hard but cuts well and feels awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dcaddo1
Attachment 206590
Hakka reminds me of hiderayama. I had a hiderayama self slurrying stone that would put a matte finish on things, but ultimately it was duplicated by tsushima, and tsushima has more dimension (even though it's not that pretty - then again, hiderayama stones aren't particularly pretty either).
I ran into mine accidentally, though. Someone sold it to me claiming it was a super fine finisher and that it was hard, and it had been sealed with lacquer over the side stamps and was well cared for. Unfortunately, it wasn't a great stone, nor was it very fine. I thought maybe I was stuck with it until I learned later that the knife sharpeners like those semi-finish self slurrying stones. The matte finish from it was a strong matte finish, no directional scratches that you could see, but you had to work a polish stone on whatever you sharpened for a while to remove all of the matte finish - that would've been quite nice for the jigane of a large knife because that finish would've lasted on the surface without getting burnished off easily.
I have a hideriyama suita as well, and it cuts well but is soft and can dish. I think it might make a good botan-like nagura but haven't tried yet. One day I would like a Tsushima as well... I have a nagura but not the stone. Looks like a good cutter for the grit. People say they are versatile. Only so much money.
Yes, usually after the C1k. It's a soft stone but doesn't dish too badly. It will wipe out chosera 1 k scratches and set you up for whatever is next in your progression. Like Dave said, it leaves a very matte finish so you have to be careful because the matte can cover up scratches and fool you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atchbo
I finally found a good piece of Yae Botan, so lately I've been using it in place of the Hakka. For me, the Yae is a better option, but the Hakka still works great and I enjoy using it.
Exactly. I, like so many others, have looked for a natural bevel setter that works for a long time now. I bought a 2K (supposedly) guangxi stone that I had high hopes for but after some time I had to admit it was not a bevel setter (or close to 2 k for that matter) I almost gave up when I came across a bunch of posts here talking about arkansas stones as bevel setters. In the knife world a 1k is considered a very fine stone. Well, a soft arkansas is considered a medium stone. Hello? Can you say natural bevel setter? Exactly what I e been looking for. The small pocket stone I have IMO,with slurry,works as good if not better than my 800 king and better than my 1k Norton. Not only faster than my 1K Norton but seems to do less damage which speeds up the rest of the process. It's a no brainier for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveW
The search is over.
Well, one day I will come across a soft ark but today I picked up a binsui to add to the roster.
Attachment 207802
Attachment 207803
Here's my coarser JNats. Behind is a extra coarse Atogoyama akepin, very similar to a 2k synthetic in fineness, but slower. In front is a red Hakka, super smooth and in the 5k synth range. Both are excellent, but a Shapton Pro 2k is faster than the Atogoyama, and suita cuts faster and is finer than the Hakka. You have to be careful with suitas and razors, they can drop some rogue grit now and then from pockets or lines, whereas the Hakka is beautifully uniform.
Cheers, Steve
I don't know much about that Atagoyama akepin. Sounds interesting. I wish I had discovered Hakka earlier... Can't get enough.
Today I tried the binsui. It's faster and more consistent than I expected. Tuned up some Henckels in no time. Seems like 800-1000 ish.
Attachment 207831
Attachment 207832
Might not be the best for razors but it had no trouble on the stainless.
I'd say you've got a good binsui then. If it wasn't, you'd know just by the fact that it would be inconsistent or weak to use (or scratchy).
I just realized that this stone is advertised as a white amakusa. I think I have read that name and binsui used interchangeably but I'm not sure. No big air pockets though. Some might call it scratchy... much coarser than iyoto.
I will try it on carbon steel later. I would love it if this stone was useful for setting initial bevels on O1 (even getting close to level). I would rather use diamonds for flattening.
