Is This Over Honing

Yesterday I had a look at one of my razors through a loupe, and noticed a few spots that looked like very very small chips. Through a 20X loupe, they were still very small (micro-chips maybe). I did 40 passes on a FeOx pasted webbing strop, wiped the blade down and then had another look through the loupe. I expected to see those micro-chips all gone. What I saw instead were more micro-chips than before. Could this be an example of over honing? My guess at what was happening was that the edge was already so thin that it was fragile and brittle. Has anyone else experienced this. As a fix I did 5 passes on CrOx and then just 5 on the FeOx. That left the edge looking much better. The razor gave a close shave with very little irritation, but the slightest bit of pull. Any recommendations on using FeOx? Can you visually see over honing through a 20X loupe?

I don't think you can overhone with a pasted strop; nor do I believe that either paste material can cause, or remove, significant chipping that can be seen at 20X.

I guess I should point out that I'm not saying you are wrong, I just have not experienced that kind of chipping with my limited experience with pasted strops. As a percentage of the total width of the bevel, how big are the chips?

I was just thinking that with all the modern technology now available to us that our forefathers didn't have I sometimes feel we have created a world of overworry exemplified by concern over what might be micro chips on an razor's edge. Magnify anything and even the straightest of lines and smoothest of surfaces start looking like the craters of the moon. I feel we worry too much about what didn't seem to concern our parent's and their parent's. I don't recall reading anything about old time shavers getting very concerned about an edge's condition other than saying, simply, if it isn't shaving, hone or refresh it.

I'm no expert, by a long, long, country mile when it comes to honing and refreshing an edge. I don't find the HHT or similar to be indicative of anything other than it cuts, or doesn't cut hair. Magnifications upward of 100 that a few feel is necessary for edge achievement leave me concerned for their mental health. I follow a basic honing pattern, judge at the end of the routine via a, again different that norm, dry thumbnail test. If I'm satisfied by what I've come to identify as a decent edge I go to crox, linen leather and then shave as the final test. If the thumbnail doesn't feel right I'll go back to the stones and repeat until it does. Primitive, I'm sure, in the eyes of many, but it sure works for me and my face.

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Originally Posted by Razorfeld

Magnifications upward of 100 that a few feel is necessary for edge achievement leave me concerned for their mental health.

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I regularly use two microscopes. Should I make an appointment with a therapist?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I regularly use two microscopes. Should I make an appointment with a therapist?

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Only if he is qualified in micro-therapy.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I don't think you can overhone with a pasted strop; nor do I believe that either paste material can cause, or remove, significant chipping that can be seen at 20X.

I guess I should point out that I'm not saying you are wrong, I just have not experienced that kind of chipping with my limited experience with pasted strops. As a percentage of the total width of the bevel, how big are the chips?

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As a percentage of the bevel, these would be maybe about 5% in size. Very small. Just noticeable at 20K. Your thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Slurryer

Yesterday I had a look at one of my razors through a loupe, and noticed a few spots that looked like very very small chips. Through a 20X loupe, they were still very small (micro-chips maybe). I did 40 passes on a FeOx pasted webbing strop, wiped the blade down and then had another look through the loupe. I expected to see those micro-chips all gone. What I saw instead were more micro-chips than before. Could this be an example of over honing? My guess at what was happening was that the edge was already so thin that it was fragile and brittle. Has anyone else experienced this. As a fix I did 5 passes on CrOx and then just 5 on the FeOx. That left the edge looking much better. The razor gave a close shave with very little irritation, but the slightest bit of pull. Any recommendations on using FeOx? Can you visually see over honing through a 20X loupe?

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You were most likely looking at a different part of the edge, that just happened to have more chips. You can mark a spot with a Sharpie to find the same spot in the scope. This will make your comparison a bit more accurate.

Did you just take if from the hone before stropping? I certainly hope is was a bad section of steel.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I regularly use two microscopes. Should I make an appointment with a therapist?

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If you use one for each eye and are hoping for stereo, then yes an appointment may be warranted.

Skip the paste, at least for now. Take them back to your finisher and touch them up. See if that removes them. It probably will not but I would still start there. If it does not remove them, then drop down to the next lower hone and then finish again and see what happens.

I don't think you actually stated how much you honed the razor before using the pasted strop, and on what hones. If it was me and I was concerned, an 'easy' fix is to simply take it back to setting the bevel stage (i.e. pyramids on a Norton 4/8 or similar) followed by something like a Shapton 16k. At lest that would solve the problem if it was overhoned and too fragile and edge.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

I regularly use two microscopes. Should I make an appointment with a therapist?

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Just make sure he or she is straight shaver.

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Originally Posted by Slurryer

As a percentage of the bevel, these would be maybe about 5% in size. Very small. Just noticeable at 20K. Your thoughts?

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On another thread there was a discussion about what size chips could be noticed while shaving. Only a few people were involved, but the general consensus was that if a chip could not be seen at 10x you would not feel it during the shave. However I think it's obvious that as the number of these unseen chips increases the blade would at some point be perceived as being dull or possibly harsh.

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Originally Posted by Razorfeld

I was just thinking that with all the modern technology now available to us that our forefathers didn't have I sometimes feel we have created a world of overworry exemplified by concern over what might be micro chips on an razor's edge. Magnify anything and even the straightest of lines and smoothest of surfaces start looking like the craters of the moon. I feel we worry too much about what didn't seem to concern our parent's and their parent's. I don't recall reading anything about old time shavers getting very concerned about an edge's condition other than saying, simply, if it isn't shaving, hone or refresh it. ...

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I would not say overly worried. More like passionately curious. Years of experience have blessed you with calibrated thumbnails. You can do a few quick test and know from experience what kind of shave will result. People like me that resort to external tools like loupes and things, want the same results that your experienced thumbnails produce, but don't have the same years of experience that you do. So we look for a way to be objective and measure our results. That's all those external tools do. Thy replace your subjective thumbs with a more objective view of what the razor looks like. Which is better is up in the air. I think being objective can be more efficient as well a build experience. It's definitely a way for a newbie to quickly get the same results as someone who has years of experiences.

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Originally Posted by carlmaloschneider

I don't think you actually stated how much you honed the razor before using the pasted strop, and on what hones. If it was me and I was concerned, an 'easy' fix is to simply take it back to setting the bevel stage (i.e. pyramids on a Norton 4/8 or similar) followed by something like a Shapton 16k. At lest that would solve the problem if it was overhoned and too fragile and edge.

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This was more of a refreshing, not a honing. So the razor was just not shaving as well. What I was doing was 40 passes on CrO2 and 80 on FeO2. The razor shaved well, but with some irritation. That's when I looked to see that the edge looked like and saw the micro chips. From there I did 5 passes on CrO2 and then 5 on FeO2. That appeared to remove them, but left the razor with a bit more pull than before. Still a close shave.

Contaminated pasted strop maybe ? No matter I would drop back and get the chips out and then proceed to polish watching for chips to reappear.

They may have also come from opening and closing your razor. I always pass on some info that was given to me by Glen. Get in the habit of closing all blades with care. I had just done a refresh on a Satinedge I had been using for a year and was surprised by some chipping like you were. The only thing I can think of was contact by closing.

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Originally Posted by 10Pups

Contaminated pasted strop maybe ? No matter I would drop back and get the chips out and then proceed to polish watching for chips to reappear.

They may have also come from opening and closing your razor. I always pass on some info that was given to me by Glen. Get in the habit of closing all blades with care. I had just done a refresh on a Satinedge I had been using for a year and was surprised by some chipping like you were. The only thing I can think of was contact by closing.

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Thanks for that. This particular razor has a fairly loose hinge pin, so the blade can come in contact with the scales I believe. I'll definitely keep that in mind!

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Originally Posted by Slurryer

This was more of a refreshing, not a honing. So the razor was just not shaving as well. What I was doing was 40 passes on CrO2 and 80 on FeO2. The razor shaved well, but with some irritation. That's when I looked to see that the edge looked like and saw the micro chips. From there I did 5 passes on CrO2 and then 5 on FeO2. That appeared to remove them, but left the razor with a bit more pull than before. Still a close shave.

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So you never looked at the blade prior to the first stropping? If not, you have no baseline to form any judgement as to the cause. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Slurryer

People like me that resort to external tools like loupes and things, want the same results that your experienced thumbnails produce, but don't have the same years of experience that you do.

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I am supposedly in the experienced category but still rely on a stereomicroscope for honing. I can detect much more nuanced issues with it than I ever would be able to with my thumb.

The more you look, the more you see.

Too much pressure while honing or stropping, contaminated strop as said or paste is not pure. Most probably pressure on the strop rolling the edge.

You would probably have to go to .50 Diamond to remove small chips or joint the edge on a high grit finisher.

Try a foam core pasted paddle strop with lite pressure.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Just make sure he or she is straight shaver.

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As opposed to??
~Richard

I didn't think my thumbnail could draw such a series of responses. Truth be told, and let me thank you for granting me years of experience, I've only been using a straight since July 2013 and honing/refreshing my edges since September 2014. I have a poor scientific background and an over abundance in the creative areas. I came to my dry thumbnail test because I forgot about reading it was supposed to be a wet thumbnail. I just used empirical observation based on the way it felt, then shaved and adjusted till I could say, to myself, that feels like it will shave the way it should. Believe me, I went back to the stones many, many times on a couple of razors till my memory was educated enough to know what I was feeling on my vaunted thumbnail.;):thinking:

Whatever works for you?

Obviously you have calibrated you TNT.

Rock on.

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Originally Posted by Razorfeld

I didn't think my thumbnail could draw such a series of responses. Truth be told, and let me thank you for granting me years of experience, I've only been using a straight since July 2013 and honing/refreshing my edges since September 2014.

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My uncle, who is a barber and trained by an old timey barber, uses the TNT to gauge the edge of a razor. The first time I gave him a razor to inspect he licked his thumbnail and did a TNT. His quickly pronounced that the edge was not shave ready. Well, his exact word were, "It ain't right." He touched up the razor on a barber's hone and I can say that it did shave better. I use a TNT now, but still like to use 60x loupe. I guess I like to go by subjective and objective tests. Though you could argue that using a loupe is really not objective either, since every person looking at the edge under magnification might view it differently.

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Originally Posted by Splashone

So you never looked at the blade prior to the first stropping? If not, you have no baseline to form any judgement as to the cause. :shrug:

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I did have a look at this edge after it was honed about a month ago. It's only now that I have done a refresh that I noticed the tiny chips. But admittedly I don't recall what the edge looked like a month ago so... :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Razorfeld

I didn't think my thumbnail could draw such a series of responses. Truth be told, and let me thank you for granting me years of experience, I've only been using a straight since July 2013 and honing/refreshing my edges since September 2014. I have a poor scientific background and an over abundance in the creative areas. I came to my dry thumbnail test because I forgot about reading it was supposed to be a wet thumbnail. I just used empirical observation based on the way it felt, then shaved and adjusted till I could say, to myself, that feels like it will shave the way it should. Believe me, I went back to the stones many, many times on a couple of razors till my memory was educated enough to know what I was feeling on my vaunted thumbnail.;):thinking:

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A can appreciate that. We both have a preference, and a level to what we want to know about the details. I want as much knowledge about the details as I can get. Probably more out of curiosity and a desire to be efficient at what I do, but the details are one of the reasons why SR's are very appealing to me. You are not as caught up on the details. I want to know what a good shave looks like on my face and on my razor. You're just as content to know the condition of the razor mostly by the quality of the shave. The point I was trying to make is that my desire for details is not a result of over worrying, but from curiosity and efficiency. Bravo to us both! Viva le Rezor.

Nothing wrong with magnification, just don’t get caught up in the grit race.

Grit size does not equal great shave. Sharp is easy, it is sharp and comfortable that makes a great shave and that, might be different for each of us.

For example at 400 X a Coticule edge looks terrible, but done by the right hands shaves wonderful.

Don’t forget to look straight down at the edge, chips and non-meeting bevels will jump out at you.

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Originally Posted by Razorfeld

I was just thinking that with all the modern technology now available to us that our forefathers didn't have I sometimes feel we have created a world of overworry exemplified by concern over what might be micro chips on an razor's edge. Magnify anything and even the straightest of lines and smoothest of surfaces start looking like the craters of the moon. I feel we worry too much about what didn't seem to concern our parent's and their parent's. I don't recall reading anything about old time shavers getting very concerned about an edge's condition other than saying, simply, if it isn't shaving, hone or refresh it.

I'm no expert, by a long, long, country mile when it comes to honing and refreshing an edge. I don't find the HHT or similar to be indicative of anything other than it cuts, or doesn't cut hair. Magnifications upward of 100 that a few feel is necessary for edge achievement leave me concerned for their mental health. I follow a basic honing pattern, judge at the end of the routine via a, again different that norm, dry thumbnail test. If I'm satisfied by what I've come to identify as a decent edge I go to crox, linen leather and then shave as the final test. If the thumbnail doesn't feel right I'll go back to the stones and repeat until it does. Primitive, I'm sure, in the eyes of many, but it sure works for me and my face.

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Can't argue with your experienced way of prepping a straight razor. Looks like you learned what works and what doesn't. I need to know what's happening down at the edge. I guess its the scientist in me that wants to know why your regimen works so well.

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Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Just make sure he or she is straight shaver.

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Originally Posted by Geezer

As opposed to??
~Richard

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Ambidextrous ? .......... :rofl2: