From film to stones

Hello, all

I've been dabbling in razor restoration for a few months now and have been using lapping films to get my edges. From 30 (600 grit) micron (for repair) to 1 micron (about 14k grit equivalence).

Recently, maybe because of technique development (either good or bad) I've been noticing a slight irritation after shaving. Some one mentioned that I may be using too fine of an edge. So, I've been having my barber hone a few for me and sure enough, no irritation.

I'm a teacher and a father of two, so funds are limited. I do want to move away from films and recently I purchased a natural 12k stone (an eBay cheapie) that I'm going to use for finishing. My new plan of attack will be to hone on films down to 3 micron (8k) and then finish on the new 12k.

My question is, is there any one here that uses a mix of natural and synthetics during their process? Are there any gotchya's that I need to be aware of?

Thanks,

Sure, I think quite a few guys use a mix of synthetic and naturals - most prevalent being synthetic stones for the coarser work and natural stones for finishing. I'm not aware of any significant bugaboos - at least I haven't had any. The one thing you want to make sure of when going from synth to natural finisher is that you get most of the scratches from the synth out - at least if you're looking for the smoothest shave anyway. I think the narrow but deeper synth scratches are what cause the harsher feel.

I use almost entirely naturals, but sometimes both (always a natural finisher).

For certainty in your method, I'd say you want to make a lateral move from synthetic to natural stone. That is, you don't want to go from a 1k synthetic stone to a PHIG on a regular basis (and especially not 1k diamond to that). I'd go from a 1k synthetic to a soft arkansas or something to get a flatter groove profile and then go to the natural finisher on slurry and then with clear water.

When you dabble in bevel setting, you have to decide how many razors you're going to set up and maintain, because you should never have to go lower than your natural finisher to maintain a razor. If you're not going to restore razors or buy lots of them, it's not that critical what you use for a lower stone.

Been using film for a few years in combination with stones.

I bevel set with a good 1K just for speed, then go to film to finish. Or just finish on film after 12k stones. I use 5um to .3um AO film.

Film can produce a very, very straight edge, down to .3um, but usually use 1um over paper to finish. There is a difference between Diamond and Aluminum Oxide film, I prefer AO and it is cheaper, Diamond is always more aggressive.

One of the biggest problems with film and some new high grit Synthetic stones is they can cause a harsh edges, from too much honing or pressure, making a super thin and harsh edge.

CBN can really calm the edge, as can honing with a layer of paper under the 1um or .3um film. Try some .50um or .125um CBN, misted wet on a paper or fabric strop.

If using .3um film to finish, I only do 6 laps with paper under the film. Paper gives a bit of cushion so only the front 1/3 of the edge of the bevel is honed, not quite a micro bevel, but similar results.

Micro bevels are also an option, just add an extra layer of tape and do a few laps, less that 10.
What stone did the barber finish on?

Many natural stone are more comfortable than film or high grit synthetics, but are not as keen. When I say not as keen we are talking about a very small difference, what we call the extra 2 percent.

You can get the best of both worlds, experimenting with technique and stropping for comfort. Stropping on leather will calm an edge also, though you may have to do 100 + laps.

One other thing to check is your film plates, make sure they are flat and smooth, glass is not flat or smooth, but can easily be lapped with diamond plates or Wet & Dry 320 paper.

This will make a big difference in performance and the ability to stick to the substrate. The flatter it is the more of the film is in contact with the bevel. Substrate does not matter that much, I use glass 3X12 in tiles from Lowes, about 4-5 bucks but have used Ceramic tiles lapped flat with the same results.

Hmm, all interesting points. Thank you for the replies.

Euclid, I've been finishing on 1um with a single layer of paper and some times with two. I've noticed a softer edge, but from your process description, I'm going about 40 laps over what I should be doing. lol

I have noticed that after a few shaves the edge does "calm down". Maybe from being stropped.

Has anyone used the diamond sharpener from Harbor Freight to lap stones?

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Originally Posted by DaveW

I use almost entirely naturals, but sometimes both (always a natural finisher).

For certainty in your method, I'd say you want to make a lateral move from synthetic to natural stone. That is, you don't want to go from a 1k synthetic stone to a PHIG on a regular basis (and especially not 1k diamond to that). I'd go from a 1k synthetic to a soft arkansas or something to get a flatter groove profile and then go to the natural finisher on slurry and then with clear water.

When you dabble in bevel setting, you have to decide how many razors you're going to set up and maintain, because you should never have to go lower than your natural finisher to maintain a razor. If you're not going to restore razors or buy lots of them, it's not that critical what you use for a lower stone.

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I have about 20 razors in que right now. I buy, fix'em up, then post them on eBay to find there own price. I feel that I will be doing this for some time so at some point I'll upgrade and add to my tools of trade. But yes, I understand what you're saying about maintenance.

What I do is first remove the previous stria honing on 1um then add the paper and do about 10 laps only to finish.

40 laps is a lot, also decrease your pressure to weight of the blade.

HF plates can be used but first must be broke in as the diamonds are not uniform.

A better cheap plate is the Chef Knives to Go 140 grit plate at 30 bucks, a great lapping plate or there is a guy on EBay that sells very nice 3X8 diamond plates up to 1K for about 15 -20 dollars, they are thin 1/8 in but very uniform in grit and distribution. The 1K is a nice bevel setter for repairs.

I know a guy who bevel sets on a well worn HF diamond plate, he can produce a very nice edge.

Stropping on Cerium Oxide on a 2mm craft foam paddle is also good, not as good as CBN, but good.

for the reccord: I have never used film so what I say is just a thought:

I would be most worried about grid contamination, some time ago it took me more then a month to figure out that the reason my edges were getting worse instead of better was because my strop was contaminated with coticule slurry.

another thought would be that you will be more likely to overhone on lapping film simply because you can only hone spine first, stropping with chromium oxide afterwards will probably solve this problem

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Originally Posted by PR357

I have about 20 razors in que right now. I buy, fix'em up, then post them on eBay to find there own price. I feel that I will be doing this for some time so at some point I'll upgrade and add to my tools of trade. But yes, I understand what you're saying about maintenance.

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Then you need a progression of synthetics to get close to the grit size of your finisher and then you can make a lateral move to the finisher. It doesn't need to be a 6 stone progression, but I'd want maybe 3.

I like arkansas stones to do bevel work- or all work I guess, but you have to be able to wake them up to keep them cutting coarse (which at least requires a diamond card or something) and if you get one that's not flat, you have some work ahead of you to get it in shape.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bram

for the reccord: I have never used film so what I say is just a thought:

I would be most worried about grid contamination, some time ago it took me more then a month to figure out that the reason my edges were getting worse instead of better was because my strop was contaminated with coticule slurry.

another thought would be that you will be more likely to overhone on lapping film simply because you can only hone spine first, stropping with chromium oxide afterwards will probably solve this problem

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Spine first? I've been leading with the edge. I have to say that's the first I've heard of leading with the spine only on films.

Also, great suggestion about contamination.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PR357

Spine first? I've been leading with the edge. I have to say that's the first I've heard of leading with the spine only on films.

Also, great suggestion about contamination.

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Read his first sentence, er I mean disclaimer. Yeah, film works fine edge first.

Any combination of stones that leads to a proper shaving edge is fine.

I use all sorts of progressions with the same outcome, a shave ready razor!


My favorites are a 1k/3k/Karasu Suita progession that I use before any finisher. Or 1k to coticule slurry, then finish either with the coticule or whatever else I feel like using.

Bram, once you squeegee the water from between the plate and film the film is well stuck to the plate.

You can do anything on film that you can with a stone, circles, half laps, X strokes. The film will not come off until you pull it off or it dries out.

It is a bit of a hassle, but it does work well and grits go to about 60k equivalent, though I prefer the 1um about 16k equivalent.

There are many threads and good videos on its use. It is just another tool, works well on very hard blades.

As said I often use a combination or just to finish. I did recently get a Gokuymo 20k that produce a similar edge to .3um film, without hassle, splash and go.