Does any one know how to distinguish the difference between a Washita and a Soft Arkansas?
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Does any one know how to distinguish the difference between a Washita and a Soft Arkansas?
basically a washita works as a bevel setter for me personally .ymmv.washita stones are the lightest in specific gravity also.2.25 or less.CAM
Yes, I know what it is I just really want a way to tell the difference.
The density test for sure but my attempts are varied at best without an expensive tester. Really looking for another way.
Alright ,if you have at least two stones (that you know are softs ) lay them on their sides and the questionable washita side by side on a scale,next take a 16 penny nail and using exactly the same pressure by watching the scale score the side of the softs.next try the same with the washita .the washita will be much softer/score deeper.
Wow, now there's a great idea. Sometimes, just sometimes, I feel really stupid for not thinking of the simplest things.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Blistersteel
That deserves a real thanks.
Or hone a blade on one stone, put a sharpie mark in the middle and do 2 or 3 laps on the toe half of the blade, then look at them.
Another good one.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
Now, what if you don't have the stone and want to tell the difference visually?
here's the problem ,this stone is a soft Arkansas .to the casual observer it looks like a possible surgical black,however it definitely is a true soft.one clue is the worm grooves in its surface.I hope you can see them?
And no I know they aren't really worm grooves.;)
here's a true surgical black.
here it is dry.
A soft Arkansas stone is usually more uniform in color than a Washita, which often has stripes of white, orange, grey, etc. Not always, but often. The Washita will generally be more porous than a Soft Arkansas, and tiny particles of stone will more readily break free during use which will result in the stone becoming dished out (saddle shaped) much quicker than the other Arkansas stone types.
here is a 6x2x1 washita I have from my grandpa .
I can only say that if you buy two dozen of each, then you'll have a good chance of making your odds better with buying a washita stone.
The best way I can describe the difference in looks is that washita stones look like the inverse of arkansas stones. When you look at them under a microscope, I don't remember them looking that different. But when you look at them with the naked eye, the soft arkansas looks like a collection of particles (think of what sand would look like if you could glue it together with invisible glue), and a washita looks like a matrix with a collection of pores.
Density isn't always a great way to test, but certainly if you have a stone that has specific gravity of 2.0 or 2.1, it is a washita stone nearly 100% of the time (dans and some of the other retailers will sell extremely soft fragile stones of that density that they label washita, but that are not true washita stones, but they are not common to see. I bought one just to see what it was like).
The stone in the post above me is clearly a washita stone. It looks more like a smooth matrix with some pores on it, and it has a characteristic pattern of a washita. The cut test is the real test, though. a washita will break in to provide a fine edge on steels around 60 hardness (but still cut softer steels fast). A soft arkansas will leave a scratchier edge despite not cutting much faster, and the edge will never have the fineness that a washita edge provides. The feel on a washita will be less gritty, even when it's lapped.
Yup, as many of us can attest when buying from a photo, “You pays your money, and take your chances.”
I have a question for OP. Why are you asking this question? Is it to help you purchase a stone? Or just for general knowledge? Just curious.
I have several Washitas and after Dave's post and mention of pores I remembered a characteristic that might help. After honing with a Washita, if you wipe off the oil and look at the top surface of the stone in a way that light is bounced obliquely off of the stone to your eye, (so say you'd be trying to use the stone as a mirror to view the reflection of a light bulb) you can definitely see the pores he mentions. Those aren't there or at least not as prominent/prevalent on regular Arks.
I know my post sounded ridiculous. But what Euclid says is the case, that you get odds when you buy washitas, unless you buy a very expensive labeled washita. I couldn't have done 50/50 before buying about two dozen stones, but now that I've bought about two dozen stones, I think I could probably get a washita 90% of the time even on a stone with a little bit of grime on it.
It would be interesting if people put up pictures of stones dirty and then cleaned, and stated washita or not.
My favorite stone of all is one that was $22 on etsy that came in a nice box and it had a hand written note from a long time ago in it that stated it was used by a professional carver in a factory in indianapolis until 1905. Many of the older stones were over thickness, meaning they were somewhere between 1 and two inches thick when new, and you still have more than an inch of stone when you lap the sway out of them (sway being the concavity along their length).
It is at 5:00 in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04iTo9rrfbw
(the stone isn't the point of the video necessarily, except to show that it can make a very good edge given how well it cuts - they're a great tool and pocket knife stone, and no maintenance).
I like this stone better than any pike or norton stone I've had, it's got a mottled surface, and in my experience the mottled stones are nice to use. I don't know why. They would've been set off to the side as a sub grade by pike. By mottled I mean there are parts of the surface that are porous and then other uninterrupted parts that have a bit of a different quality than a non-porous arkansas (like a trans or black). On a washita, those continuous parts of the surface still have some bite.
It's hard to explain it, but that is a dead giveaway on a washita.
There's a lot of subtle things about the surfaces of the stones, but you can get fooled by a clean hard arkansas that isn't quite dense enough to be totally non-porous. The large particle softs look slightly different, they're more uniform and you can see the particles vs. the pores.
Yeah most of the time it's very tough to tell from photos of used stones because they're so covered in grime. Here are a couple I picked up and what they cleaned up to.
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This post is not about eBay, it is about knowledge. I am sure after the knowledge is obtained it could be used to collect more stones but that is not the point.Quote:
I have a question for OP. Why are you asking this question? Is it to help you purchase a stone? Or just for general knowledge? Just curious.
I would like to tell by visual means, the feel of the stone, honing with the stone, and as much information about the stone as I can absorb.
This stone is truly American and historic. I am drawn by this stone (as well as a beautiful black). I will be visiting Dan's in the near future and hopefully gain more knowledge.
As far as your pictures in your post; are these Washitas? One looks like a Washita, and the other a soft.
They are both Washitas. The pictures in this case are slightly misleading due to the oil staining. If cleaned longer they would both eventually go nearly pure white, but this is good enough for me. Both are excellent fast cutting stones that can produce a shaving edge straight from the stone.
Dan's isn't going to be able to tell you a whole lot about washitas. Norton owns the old Pike mine area and has decided that while there is plenty of material still there, it's not profitable to go get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by dta116
Washitas, and I don't know if this is completely accurate, but washitas come out in gigantic amounts and can be cut into stones. Most of the finer arkansas stones, especially translucents but maybe all of them, come out in odd shaped pieces and there is a huge amount waste involved in cutting them to regular shaped stones.
It would be fantastic if Dan's was allowed to take some mine stock from the old pike washita mine, and if you do go to Dan's, you'll be able to see their version of the washita (which is very low density, but is also fragile - the end of mine broke off in shipping, and examining it it's easy to see why, it's a very airy arkansas stone). But at this point, the mine is closed and none comes to market.
I have been an ardent stone purchaser, and I've sold off most of what I tried and kept a fair amount (that in itself is a total waste of money, the cost of ebay, shipping, etc, takes a 20% slice or so of everything that I try), and I think what you want to look at at dans is stones on the harder side, the softs are better gotten somewhere else. Dans' black stones and trans stones are as good as any I've ever seen, though, vintage or not. They are better than both versions of nortons (and I have bought several trans and a black from norton), but the softs from natural whetstone have been better (to me) for a stone that you want to have cutting aggressively (and NW's prices are very low, which is a double bonus).
Pike mine washitas have no equivalent elsewhere, though, and Dan himself will tell you that they're not the same thing (Dan's washitas vs. pike). You'll be getting arkansas stones from Dan's, which is fine, they are fine people and they will not mislead you.
Thanks David for that informative post. I have also talked to David at Natural Whetstones and he tells me his Washitas' are coming from a different mine although they look nothing like the Pikes', (white with black spots), his is white with purple banding.
I may visit both companies on my trip so hopefully I can come to some conclusion about these stones. hopefully I can get my hands on a few to see what the differences really are. I have some marked Washita but they are not distinctive any any way except for the porosity and are a bit more course. I don't believe I have ever tried a Pike or Norton.
If they are marked Pike Washita, Norton Washita, Behr Manning, Woodworker's Delight, Carpenter's Delight or Mechanic's Friend, they are real washitas. If they are smiths or some other later stone, they are just soft arkansas.
The point I'm making is that you mentioned you'd like to be able to tell a washita from a soft arkansas, and the current makers use washita as a description of a very low density soft arkansas, but none of them are washita stones. A real washita stone (like when you see a real vintage stone) is an entirely different stone, and will perform much better than anything new that's got a label of washita. A low density true washita stone will cut fast, but is capable of a fine edge if you let it settle in. A stone labeled washita that's just a low density soft arkansas stone won't really cut any faster but it won't have nearly the capability of cutting fine either, be it a freshly lapped stone, or one that's broken in.
You won't be able to tell much about the stones using them a little bit, the real character of them is something you have to judge using them over a long period of time. I haven't talked to Dave at NW about their washitas (only ordered the dark gray trans, soft and hard from them), but I know that he's not going to have access to a true washita stone. Nobody does except norton and they're not producing nor letting anyone else have stock to cut into bench stones. I think if you get to visit the places, you'll have a good productive visit about the range of arkansas stones, but you'll not see any actual washitas, no matter what they're labeled.
Here's a good representative shot that shows the pores of a Washita fairly decently. It's not the easiest thing to get a photo of. And I have tried some of the newer "Washita" stones also, they are not the same as the old real ones - except the new release Lily Whites that Norton let out several years back. Best bet to get one today is buying older stones.
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Dave, I have heard some guys describe Washitas as "crunchy" and that they go out of flat faster than other Arks. Mine sure don't feel crunchy, they just feel like they get a good bite on the steel and take it off fast. I also don't notice much more dishing than with other Arks personally, but I don't use my Washitas 5 times a day every day either.
When they're freshly lapped, I'd say they have a bit of a feeling of "filing" the metal, it's a uniform smooth aggressive feeling, but not scratchy like a soft arkansas can be. Not everyone here uses chisels, but what strikes me with a true washita is that I can take any one of them, whether they are of the lilywhite type (which are the soft fast cutting large-pored stones) or a finer type, and even if they have been lapped and have swarf on them, a quick bare leather strop of a chisel sharpened on them will shave armhair pretty easily. The softs will just barely separate a couple of hairs here and there, and not have nearly as good of an edge.
A freshly lapped soft arkansas stone is a decent thing to have because it's fast and it doesn't cut deep grooves. Same with a freshly lapped washita. A settled in soft arkansas is a turd. Slow cutting and not fine. A settled in washita stone is right next in edge quality to a black or trans ark.
Crunchy is hard to relate to, though I could probably have been quoted as having used that before....maybe for an amakusa or something.
I've gotten a lot of older stones that have sway along their length, some severely. To my knowledge, the only way the stones give up particles easily is laminated tools or knives, or using something edge first with very large pressure. Laminated material will keep a stone conditioned somewhat if used with pressure (there was a link on here once about a japanese knife maker saying he didn't need nagura because he had jigane - soft metal - on his knives), as the soft metal seems to pull at some of the particles, and even a dull stone will cut the soft metal in laminated tools with ease.
Actually that's about a perfect analogy. Mine do feel almost exactly like a file cutting soft steel when fresh lapped and for a good while afterward. I lap when they start feeling a bit slicker. I never use much more than medium pressure on my stones, I just lap them if they need that. The guys using crunchy I almost start to think have only got experience with the newer "Washitas" that aren't really true Washitas.
Great info, Keep it up, I am beginning to understand.
I can relate to this shot, Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by eKretz
Here are some stones for your consideration.
Do any of these look like Washita?
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I can get some better shots if needed.
A Second batch to consider.
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Thanks.
Attachment 193051 of your pictures the stone on the right is similar to a soft Ark I have.[ATTACH]
Two more I forgot.
Attachment 193052
Just going by appearance - in the pic where the one on the right looks like a soft Ark, the one on the left bears a resemblance to a Washita. In the last pic so does the one on the right. I'm viewing in my phone though so not sure if I'm getting a good look. One or two of the others also.
Left, almost certainly, right, possibly.Quote:
Originally Posted by dta116
From the set of three pictures in your second batch, top picture dog bone stone, probably. One on the left unsure, but if I were hoping to have 90% odds, I'd let it go. There are a lot of softs with coloration like that. Middle two probably, bottom one yes.
Strangely enough, it's a bit harder to tell when the stones have been cleaned well. It's easier when they have a little bit of oil on them from use, don't know why, maybe because it's easier to see mottling.
I didn't look at the first batch.
Confirmation with any of them would really have to be made in use unless they were really mottled.
