Experimenting with my Thuringian

Hello good people,

I've been messing around with my natural stones quite a bit lately. I've greatly enjoyed much of the results, but some still leave me wondering :hmmm:. In general I have been bevel setting on my Belgian Blue, honing on coti I have both a newer ardennes coti as well as a smaller ( I believe finer) vintage coti. and finally I finish my razors on a thuri.

All of my results have been serviceable at worst, however one thing that keeps me wondering is that while I can get a wonderful edge out of finishing with about 25-50 x-strokes on pure water thuri, I have found that creating a slurry will sometimes diminish the edge (with as few as 5 strokes).

Another curiosity of mine is the polish on the edge itself. I find that when coming of of this thuri the edge looks to have a matte finish on it. Has anyone found this finish to be common or is it a better sign to have a mirror finish on your bevels?

Cheers,

Julian

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Originally Posted by SailorJ

one thing that keeps me wondering is that while I can get a wonderful edge out of finishing with about 25-50 x-strokes on pure water thuri, I have found that creating a slurry will sometimes diminish the edge (with as few as 5 strokes).

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Given that you have been using a coticule and a thuringian, I'm rather confused as to why you would be wondering.

The slurry of both of these increases the cutting capacity of each. When you follow your pure water strokes with slurried strokes, it is the equivalent of dropping to a lower grit hone in a synthetic progression.

Don't do that and you'll be fine with your "wonderful edge!"

I far prefer the edge on my Thuris finished with straight water. Some guys say they like a slurry edge but not me. On a JNat yes, but not on a Thuri. A matte or hazy mirror finish is not out of order if you used a slurry before finishing on straight water. 25 - 50 x-strokes on straight water isn't always enough to remove the matte/haziness from the slurry.

I get the haziness as well. I slurry and dilute to just water. Shaves are great. I don't need to see myself in the bevel

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Given that you have been using a coticule and a thuringian, I'm rather confused as to why you would be wondering.

The slurry of both of these increases the cutting capacity of each. When you follow your pure water strokes with slurried strokes, it is the equivalent of dropping to a lower grit hone in a synthetic progression.

Don't do that and you'll be fine with your "wonderful edge!"

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I should have been more specific, I was referring to finishing separate razors in one of two ways. some with a slurry then diluting it, and others just straight water. The slurry may be equivalent to a lower grit but I was confused about that as many proponents for slurry with a thuringian post here.

A lot of Thuris are soft enough to just slightly self-slurry also, so even some "straight water" finishes will be hazy if you don't constantly rinse the stone every few strokes.

to slurry or not to slurry in part is answered in the how big of a step are you doing. You can do really big steps in grit by using slurry, as it lowers the grit. However if you are going from a lower finisher to slurry it will initially drop your sharpness as you have just dropped in grit.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

A lot of Thuris are soft enough to just slightly self-slurry also, so even some "straight water" finishes will be hazy if you don't constantly rinse the stone every few strokes.

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I found this out a few months ago when I received my first thuri !! I don't remember the exact strokes but self slurry didn't take much if I remember ...

Nope, on average most of them only take 5 or 10 strokes to start self-slurrying a little bit. The harder ones maybe a little more.

There are a few things I have observed using my thuringians over the time. First point is the color of the thuri. As pointed out in other posts, investigations of different thuringian whetstone layers made in the 1960ths or 70ths showed that there is a difference of the yellow-green thuringians to the the other colors, especially the blue ones, concerning the upper size of the abrasive quartz particles incorporated in the stone matrix. Whereas in the yg layer the upper size of quartz is only about 10 microns it could reach about 50 microns in the blue layers.
Honing on a thuringian without raising a slurry, the difference in the colors -if you have good quality hones- is not very pronounced. On the hone surface it is not so much essential, if the particle size is a bit more or less.
Raising a slurry or if the stone selfslurries a lot, the effect is different. If the quartz particles are set free rom the matrtix, their size becomes more essential. Because thuringian stones are soft, the particles willl not dull and break while honing as it is the case with most harder stones. The quartz will be pushed into the softer stone matrix by a stroke but migth be loosened again with another stroke. And this larger particles can cause scratches in the razor and can degrade the keenness compared to a water only endfinishing.
Next thing is, if you raise a slurry with a DMT, you will knock out more particles from the stone matrix. Better is to raise slurry on a thuri with thuri!
And a last remark - even if the particle size of the quartz in yellow-green stones is less, the hone matrix is more soft and can be more easily slurried so that more quartz particles will be set free. Also the particle number of quarts could be enhanched in the yg-qualities compared to other colors. This could make the yg hones faster - even if the particle size is lower. That's a natural stone!

Thank you that was very informative. For some reason, despite the evidence to the contrary I assumed thuris to be hard. I would expect this could also explain some of the rough feedback from the slurry. I know I overhoned a couple edges to see how long it would take on the thuri and got chipping on the edges. Wonder if it was due to the particles freeing up as you said, in combination with too thin an edge.

Also I do want a slurry stone to experiment with. I considered sawing a bit off of mine to use, but it's already so small, about 25mmx60mm. Since the Quartz and matrices are the same this seems like it would be preferable to raise a slurry with over a dissimilar stone. Is this the case, or are there other stones that work equally well of not better (in general, I know natural stones vary).

What is the color of your thuringian?
If you take care of the shipping costs, I will send you a matching slurry stone.
Regards Peter

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Originally Posted by hatzicho

What is the color of your thuringian?
If you take care of the shipping costs, I will send you a matching slurry stone.
Regards Peter

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Thank you! That's very generous. I will post some pictures of it I can't quite tell what color it is. If my memory serves the stone is blue ish grey and makes a light grey slurry. But I think the same might be said for other varieties. Is it usually subtle?

It is very intreting that even thuri varie - i have 2 of them , blue - green and dark grey almot black . The BG is softer and finer faster stone , the black is little coarser and hard stone .I love them both and also my Franconian - looks eczactly like this

http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...an-hone-2.html

exactly like the 3 from left to right , but it is small stone - 12 x2,5 sm. - 5 x1 inch

Here are some pictures of the hone, now that I look at it, the stone seems pretty dark.


Attachment 194232Attachment 194233

Is it just the picture or is the slurry darker gray? That may be a different type of slate and not a Thuri.

I could not tell you from my own experience that this stone is a thuri. But I bought it off of a trusted member here through the classifieds. They claimed to believe it was a finer stone than a couple of eschers that they owned.

Attachment 194237 this is a less dilute slurry on the stone

I have a slate that gives much better edges than any Thuri edge I've ever tried, it looks very similar to yours and has the same color slurry.

Eric isn't lying that slate is AWESOME. So nice in fact I was willing to trade a piece of Asano Koma nagura for a slab.(Hope you are enjoying it).


possible thuri - Album on Imgur
I got a new 8x2 dark blue stone in which I thought was a silkstone at first but now I'm thinking possible thuri. It is too thin for a silkstone. It is soft(lapped super easy but no auto slurry so far) and fine with a velvety feel. The slurry dries white also. It produces a great edge so even if it's not a thuri it's still a keeper.

Thank you!

I do enjoy the results I get from this stone, however one thing that always tugs at me are the differences between this stone and my nani12k. I prefer to use the natural stone because I prefer the low maintenance to soaking and lapping the nani. While I like the idea of a mellowed edge off of a natural stone I can't tell if it is this that I am observing or a degradation in the edge.

On another note, I remember hearing that the cuticles produced by ardennes are backed with slate. I have one of their slurry stones, I wonder if this would work as a slurry stone, or if this would end up being coarse.

And since I've mentioned them hopefully everyone has heard about the break in they just had recently. They have asked if folks can be on the lookout for questionable deals on coti's going around as they were just robbed. :mad:

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Originally Posted by SailorJ

Thank you!

. I prefer to use the natural stone because I prefer the low maintenance to soaking and lapping the nani.. :mad:

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I never have needed to soak my Nani12k. I just wet it and go. I've never noticed a difference in its abilities as a finisher whether I had soaked it or not. If you're like me, you probably prefer the natural stone at least in some respects because it's more of a challenge than the 12k. Great info on this thread guys!

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Originally Posted by SailorJ

Here are some pictures of the hone, now that I look at it, the stone seems pretty dark.


Attachment 194232Attachment 194233

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The late thuringian hones mined by the company J.G. Escher& Son had a very dark blue to more blackish color. They came from another mine several miles away from the old quarris and the stones are from a different geological age.

Here is a photo that I already published elsewhere. I took the photo on a black background to show the differences, so all stones look more bluish-grey than black compared to your shot.
The two stones on the left are the typical blue (ligth and dark blue) thuringians mined in the old quarries. The stones in the middle were mined by JGES in the 1930ths, the mottled Eschers (last stone on the rigth) after 1937.

Attachment 194582

Your stone don't need to be a necessarily a thuringian though. Could be any other slate.
Anyway I will perpare two small slurry stones over the weekend, one dark blue from the original quarries and one from the later blackish stones for you to try.

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Originally Posted by ColdbyDesign

I never have needed to soak my Nani12k. I just wet it and go. I've never noticed a difference in its abilities as a finisher whether I had soaked it or not. If you're like me, you probably prefer the natural stone at least in some respects because it's more of a challenge than the 12k. Great info on this thread guys!

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For me I like naturals because they are more of a gamble and more of a challenge. There is just something in me that likes knowing I took a rock (plain simple rock yet a very special rock) and was able to obtain an edge of remarkable keenness able to smoothly shave a face to the point of BBS!!! A skill that has been diminishing with synthetics and sharpening systems (knives). A skill that is not easily learned and with a rock that NOONE else has which is exactly the same. I think that is the draw to a natural stone for me.

Update:

Just recently honed up two of my razors, both started on the chosera 1k, moved up to heavy slurry/dilucot method with the coti and here is where I branched off. I finished one on the nani 12k and the other on the thuri/slate with a slurry produced by my dmt plate. After a trip to the strop I lathered up and went to work giving each 1/2 of the shave. Both gave flawless shaves, however I did notice that on the ATG pass, the thuri razor did seem a little more comfortable on the skin.

It may have been differences in the razor, or my technique shaving. But it would go to support whats already been said about the edges produced my natural stones.

I definitely get more comfortable edges from the better natural stones. I have a few that I consider the best. A very nice and fast vintage coticule, the outstanding slate I found locally that I call Kuro slate, a Nakayama Maruka Kiita, a black translucent Ark, a Celebrated Water Hone Thuringian, and a Vosgienne slate. The first three are pretty much tied for my favorite.