The Question of hone flatness

I checked my naniwas today and notice they are not completely flat. I checked them with a metal straight edge. The 1K has a little rise in the middle most of the way long ways. the others you could see light between the straight edge and stone on a few places. the flattening plate with the same straight edge showed no light. I use the diamond plate after every honing session. and I us it under running water. I know that there is no way for a hone to be completely flat but how off can it be and still be effective. Just a question for the more experienced hone masters.

yes it can be really really flat.

If its off a bit the long way it's OK as long as the short way it's 100% perfect. However it's how you cope with it being off. Some folks can't and if that's the case you need to have it proper flat. If you are OK with it off a bit then continue to hone away.

I'm kind of lazy and do not "lap" my hones on a regular basis. I do clean them with a diamond plate after every session. I have never checked to see if they are truly flat. An annual grid lap is as good as it gets at my house. I may be a philistine but that's just how it works for me.

All this makes me wonder which is better the Diamond plate or 220 wet dry on a granite counter top to flatten the stone. or if necessary get another diamond plate. I have had this one since 2013. I use it a lot

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Originally Posted by rhensley

All this makes me wonder which is better the Diamond plate or 220 wet dry on a granite counter top to flatten the stone. or if necessary get another diamond plate. I have had this one since 2013. I use it a lot

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Do you clean it after or before use? I scrub mine with a bathroom scrub-brush after each honing session to make sure I get all the stone detritus off of it. I use it to lap each stone (lightly) after each session too.

a soft brush and some comet can bring a lot of life back into it

For what it is worth..........
As a machinist we always lapped a part on a surface at least four times the dimensions of that part. And, we used a rotating "W" pattern as we moved the part back and forth each stroke the part was rotated a few degrees while making the same w pattern.

The diamond plate used poorly may cause a hump in the middle of the stone. Doing a figure "8" while lapping can reduce that.
Due to the weight of the hone or diamond plate, lapping will easily go bad and wear the outer edges of the hone more than the center. Off center pressure during lapping is used to make lenses! To combat this, use the thumb and a couple finger to hold the hone at its center line and apply little or no pressure while moving the hone in a figure "8" pattern on the lapping surface.

Also, many of the man made hones we use do absorb some water so they may grow or shrink in thickness across the width or length. Soak them always for the same length of time before use or lapping and use a spray bottle to keep them damp for honing.

The knowledgeable use of a diamond plate can increase flatness. The Wet / dry silicon carbide paper on a granite tile or counter top seems to do the best for me.

Your mileage may and probably will vary!
~Richard

[QUOTE=Haroldg48;1469474]Do you clean it after or before use? I scrub mine with a bathroom scrub-brush after each honing session to make sure I get all the stone detritus off of it. I use it to lap each stone (lightly) after each session too.[/QUOT

I clean my diamond plate after every honing session. and before cleaning the plate I use it on the hones. pretty much the same.

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Originally Posted by Geezer

For what it is worth..........
As a machinist we always lapped a part on a surface at least four times the dimensions of that part. And, we used a rotating "W" pattern as we moved the part back and forth each stroke the part was rotated a few degrees while making the same w pattern.

The diamond plate used poorly may cause a hump in the middle of the stone. Doing a figure "8" while lapping can reduce that.
Due to the weight of the hone or diamond plate, lapping will easily go bad and wear the outer edges of the hone more than the center. Off center pressure during lapping is used to make lenses! To combat this, use the thumb and a couple finger to hold the hone at its center line and apply little or no pressure while moving the hone in a figure "8" pattern on the lapping surface.

Also, many of the man made hones we use do absorb some water so they may grow or shrink in thickness across the width or length. Soak them always for the same length of time before use or lapping and use a spray bottle to keep them damp for honing.

The knowledgeable use of a diamond plate can increase flatness. The Wet / dry silicon carbide paper on a granite tile or counter top seems to do the best for me.

Your mileage may and probably will vary!
~Richard

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I'll pay more attention to how I lap. also when I lap I hold the plate in the left hand under the faucet and the hone upside down on top of the plate. i'll see if that helps. thanks

At my house all synthetic hones that I've had, with the exception of the Nortons 4 & 8, will not remain flat between honing sessions, even if I were to flatten them at the end of the session. Speaking of Shapton pro, naniwa super stone, naniwa chosera, suehiro 20k. I've heard the glasstones are no different.

I suppose the reason that the Nortons don't change is because of the binder. A rock collector/honer/scientist told me that polymer binders are affected by humidity, heat, even light. So it is part of the trip.

I use a Starrett straight edge to check them. So I resigned myself to lap at the beginning of each honing session. Life in the big city............ :boohoo:

Be aware of temperature gradients also. If ambient temp is 68° and you are using water that feels warm to your hand (say 100°) it can easily cause movement on an aluminum plate like an Atoma until the temperature stabilizes. The resultant lack of flatness won't really matter but it might cause you to lap off more stone than necessary because the plate is a bit warped. Then as it warms up it will change, so it will look like your pencil grid is being erased in a different spot. This happens on a lot smaller scale with the steel diamond plates and I don't know about the glass reinforced nylon ones, don't have any. It also makes my Shapton Pro stones move a bit. I always try to use room temperature water.

Stones being perfectly flat certainly isn't absolutely necessary but makes for much faster repeat honing on a razor when you come back to it, since you don't have to do any complex strokes to compensate for any areas that aren't making contact because the hone has a slightly different surface contour than the last time you used it. It becomes a bit more important if you do a progression through multiple stones - but even then they don't have to be necessarily flat - just if they're all the same contour it makes things easier and faster.

Personally I prefer flat stones but it isn't as though it's impossible to hone on a surface that isn't flat.

I have much the same experience with Nortons not swelling, same for the Shapton Glass. However the Naniwa SSs seem to grow with water contact. As a result of this thread I will hence check for flat more often and compare wet and dry stones. Good thought, thanks.

Exact flatness must be achieved just before going on your hanging leather strop which you of course hold so flat. And the leather is deemed flat. Then it goes to your flat face and whiskers.....

Well it took a while. I got a new 220 wet dry sandpaper and went to the kitchen counter. the counter is granite and flat. I ck the counter with a pocket measure the stainless steel type you know the type with the adjustable bar. it's not too long to have a wave. I ck every stone I have the 1K was the worse. I flattened it first then went to the 3/8K and the 5K then the 12K and the last was the 20K Suehiro. I took a pencil and marked the surface as Lynn showed on the YouTube video and worked until it was gone and the pocket steel didn't show any light between the hone and steel. The Suehiro took for ever. Hard stone. Now I hope i'm ready for the next couple of razors coming . There are some that I may go back to . when I honed them before the flattening it took a long time to have them pass the HHT. I know the HHT doesn't make a blade shave ready by it's self but if it does pass this test then it's a good place to start the shave test.
Now for the diamond plate. the center and the most of the plate was very dark. about 1/4 to 3/8 in from the edges was light gray and the rest was dark. I could hold it in the light of the sun and see the bright shinny partials of diamond. I cleaned it again with Ajax and it didn't help much. I then got a bar of lava soap. pealed the end and rubbed the bar on the plate and rinsed and repeated. it helped some but still a little dark. I may have warn this plate out to soon. When I got this plate I had a few barbers hones. one of them a Swaty had a pretty good chip in the edge. I used the plate to flatten it out. the barber hones are kind of hard and I may have warn the plate down quicker than it should have. I still have that swaty and one more swaty that is I believe never used. The other stones I had I gave to a friend who collects them. I would have just ruined them. anyway if the diamond plate still gives a problem I order a another one and treat it better. We live and learn. The diamond plate I acquired about Nov. or Dec. 2013 right after I joined SRP. I guess the plates are not indestructible.

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Originally Posted by rhensley

Well it took a while. I got a new 220 wet dry sandpaper and went to the kitchen counter. the counter is granite and flat. I ck the counter with a pocket measure the stainless steel type you know the type with the adjustable bar. it's not too long to have a wave. I ck every stone I have the 1K was the worse. I flattened it first then went to the 3/8K and the 5K then the 12K and the last was the 20K Suehiro.

I took a pencil and marked the surface as Lynn showed on the YouTube video and worked until it was gone and the pocket steel didn't show any light between the hone and steel. The Suehiro took for ever. Hard stone. Now I hope i'm ready for the next couple of razors coming . There are some that I may go back to . when I honed them before the flattening it took a long time to have them pass the HHT. I know the HHT doesn't make a blade shave ready by it's self but if it does pass this test then it's a good place to start the shave test.

Now for the diamond plate. the center and the most of the plate was very dark. about 1/4 to 3/8 in from the edges was light gray and the rest was dark. I could hold it in the light of the sun and see the bright shinny partials of diamond. I cleaned it again with Ajax and it didn't help much. I then got a bar of lava soap. pealed the end and rubbed the bar on the plate and rinsed and repeated. it helped some but still a little dark.

I may have warn this plate out to soon. When I got this plate I had a few barbers hones. one of them a Swaty had a pretty good chip in the edge. I used the plate to flatten it out. the barber hones are kind of hard and I may have warn the plate down quicker than it should have. I still have that swaty and one more swaty that is I believe never used.

The other stones I had I gave to a friend who collects them. I would have just ruined them. anyway if the diamond plate still gives a problem I order a another one and treat it better. We live and learn. The diamond plate I acquired about Nov. or Dec. 2013 right after I joined SRP. I guess the plates are not indestructible.

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Same info, just busted it up with the 'enter' key to make it easier on the eyes.

The suehiro is a bear to lap. The Atoma 1200 is the best diamond plate there is IME, but pricey.

Try the unused Swaty without lapping it, whether it is flat or not. The old barber's I knew never flattened them, or anything else AFAIK, and I'm curious as to whether it would be as good as a flattened one, or even better ?

The formula/composition might be affected by lapping ........ or not.

Your diamond plate isn't trashed, just dulled/worn. Clean it with Bar Keeper's Friend - it's the best cleaner for diamond plates I've used. Mine turned almost brown for weeks after lapping some barber hones. Cleaning with Bar Keeper's Friend made it look almost new again. Didn't speed it up any though.

Yea, barkeepers works, put it on scrub it in with a stiff brush, Bix paint stripping brushes are great for this. Like a big stiff short bristle toothbrush.

Let it set for 10-15 mins and scrub again.

The powder works better than the liquid.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yea, barkeepers works, put it on scrub it in with a stiff brush, Bix paint stripping brushes are great for this. Like a big stiff short bristle toothbrush.

Let it set for 10-15 mins and scrub again.

The powder works better than the liquid.

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Where can I find this elusive cleanser. where I live I shop at Walmart Kroger's the usual places and I haven't found it. do I need to go the nearest bar . just joking but I have looked.

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Originally Posted by rhensley

Where can I find this elusive cleanser. where I live I shop at Walmart Kroger's the usual places and I haven't found it. do I need to go the nearest bar . just joking but I have looked.

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i just got it at my neighborhood Ace hardware.

I get BKF at the local grocery store.

So should I be paranoid about this?I followed Nortons/Lynns intructions on the 220/1k&4/8 I lapped them flat with a pencil grid and paper.Over 5 years I've honed or retouched 10 razors,all bevels and spines look even.But do the stones need relapped?Oh hell I'm gonna do it again just to make sure they are flat!

I use all 10 razors and shave 3 times a week?

If the hones are flat they will re lap with very little material removal.

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Originally Posted by Zemke

So should I be paranoid about this?I followed Nortons/Lynns intructions on the 220/1k&4/8 I lapped them flat with a pencil grid and paper.Over 5 years I've honed or retouched 10 razors,all bevels and spines look even.But do the stones need relapped?Oh hell I'm gonna do it again just to make sure they are flat!

I use all 10 razors and shave 3 times a week?

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Heck, If the razors are shaving you well and you are using the hones in the same way, it seems that it is not necessary. I have, and have seen, many really dished hones that obviously were used till they were no longer needed.
If the quality of your edges goes down, then I would consider a re-lapping and then re- honing the razors.
Just my take on it, and... I am the one that always over-thinks and over precisions things!
~Richard

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Originally Posted by rhensley

Where can I find this elusive cleanser. where I live I shop at Walmart Kroger's the usual places and I haven't found it. do I need to go the nearest bar . just joking but I have looked.

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Comet or ajax cleanser will do the same thing.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Comet or ajax cleanser will do the same thing.

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Thanks I have comet.

I subscribe to the theory of mostly flat. So long as I don't let the hones get a saddle in the middle, they usually do fine.

Naniwa Select for me, don't need much water. I never soak them. Just spray till water pools up and use them. Then after a dozen razors or so, clean with a diamond plate lightly under running water and put them up til the next use.

Have fun.

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Originally Posted by Lynn

I subscribe to the theory of mostly flat. So long as I don't let the hones get a saddle in the middle, they usually do fine.

Naniwa Select for me, don't need much water. I never soak them. Just spray till water pools up and use them. Then after a dozen razors or so, clean with a diamond plate lightly under running water and put them up til the next use.

Have fun.

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Thanks feller. I just got through watching your video on the subject. I guess mine were not that bad the 1K had a little rise in the center going the length of the stone. when I held a straight edge across the stone I could see some light under the edge on both sides of that little hump. the other stones were really quite good. I probably will order a new diamond plate I'm going to try it one more time and decide. Oh and it seems like this winter i'm wearing your videos out. you should charge royalties.

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Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Comet or ajax cleanser will do the same thing.

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No they won't either. Bar Keeper's Friend contains oxalic acid. Neither Ajax nor Comet have this ingredient. It's an important one for our purposes as it dissolves steel and make it easy to loosen up and wash away. It also helps majorly to make the cleaner more effective with a lot of other stains, like rust.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

No they won't either. Bar Keeper's Friend contains oxalic acid. Neither Ajax nor Comet have this ingredient. It's an important one for our purposes as it dissolves steel and make it easy to loosen up and wash away. It also helps majorly to make the cleaner more effective with a lot of other stains, like rust.

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Dissolves steel? I bet that stuff is hard on the plumbing in some older houses. Galvanized steel pipes. I wonder if it will harm the pipes?

I wouldn't think so. When used as a cleanser it's pretty much full strength with just enough water to form a paste. Once it gets washed down the drain with running water it would be pretty dilute. Even when it's a concentrated paste it's not like you can witness the chemical reaction and watch the steel dissolve before your eyes or anything. The dissolving that occurs is on a pretty microscopic level - it only takes a tiny amount of reduction in the size of a steel swarf particle to make it come loose from anywhere it might be stuck/wedged.

Regarding the diamond plate, is there any prep needed for a new plate? I thought I saw some mention of doing something to prepare it, so it didn't scratch the hone up, but I can't recall where or what the procedure is. I have a new DMT for my Norton 4/8K and SS.

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Originally Posted by pcm

Regarding the diamond plate, is there any prep needed for a new plate? I thought I saw some mention of doing something to prepare it, so it didn't scratch the hone up, but I can't recall where or what the procedure is. I have a new DMT for my Norton 4/8K and SS.

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Sharpen your kitchin knives on it, than use it.

Pix has it right, I took a huge Wusthof clever to mine with soapy water, conditioned it in no time flat.
It's been serving me well for almost a year now.

Or rub the shaft of a screwdriver up and down it 8-10 times. Just knocks off any big protruding diamond pieces.

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Originally Posted by Haroldg48

Or rub the shaft of a screwdriver up and down it 8-10 times. Just knocks off any big protruding diamond pieces.

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Bear in mind, most screwdrivers are chrome plated,you do not want to muck up your new plate with chrome or cadmium particals.
Any pce of carbon steel will work (unplated)

Thanks! I'll try sharpening one of my kitchen knives on it. I think I ended up with some scratches on my Naniwa SS from the DMT. Maybe I can lap them out.

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Originally Posted by pcm

Thanks! I'll try sharpening one of my kitchen knives on it. I think I ended up with some scratches on my Naniwa SS from the DMT. Maybe I can lap them out.

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Sure, you can lap them out. Used to be recommended, and I guess still is, to rub the plate down with a chisel or a plane blade. I use a 12" Stanley Hurwood screwdriver (the length, not the point) since I don't have planes or chisels. Make sure to get the edges at the top of the plate.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

I wouldn't think so. When used as a cleanser it's pretty much full strength with just enough water to form a paste. Once it gets washed down the drain with running water it would be pretty dilute. Even when it's a concentrated paste it's not like you can witness the chemical reaction and watch the steel dissolve before your eyes or anything. The dissolving that occurs is on a pretty microscopic level - it only takes a tiny amount of reduction in the size of a steel swarf particle to make it come loose from anywhere it might be stuck/wedged.

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Interesting stuff Eric, thanks.

Alx