English Hone ID

Hello gentlemen.

I just bought this fine hone from the bay. It was simply listed oilstone. I thought it was a Charnley Forest, but when I cleaned it up and lapped it I could see I wasn't.

It got the right colours but it's a soft hone, a kind of slate. It feels like my coticules, but don't self slurry at all. The slury looks just like my Eschers.

It's a finisher, but not the same high end as a thüringian.

There is a label but it's hard to read. What I can read says:

Made in England
Wm. Marple .......
.....ld end
S....... Brand
..........tools

I do hope somebody can help.

Hi Kristian this mostly resamples a Llyn Idwal Stone on the first look, as mentioned probably a Charnley....

I will add some pics later of some typical Idwal pattering....

Can you add some macro/detail shots of the surface ?

It's a soft hone... Not hard at all...

Here are some pics of Idwall Stones, the left one shows comparable properties but seems also to be more a slate type stone....

The Llyn Idwall (Novaculite of Kirwan) is as the name states a Novaculite Type Stone. The stone is quite brittle and has a flakey look a like on certain areas.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7484/...877b76_c_d.jpg

Here you can see the flaking:
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8674/...cb23b0_c_d.jpg

Thats how the slurry looks, these stones do not autoslurry. The slurry was created with a DMT 1200 and took around 25 laps.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7503/...67674f_c_d.jpg

Wm Marples & Sons. Seems to be an old UK tool maker/trader...they had the Shamrock Brand Logo. Check, here are some comparable labels talking about color and writing like the one on your box
http://www.oldtools.co.uk/tools/Marples.html

Very interesting:)
I have stone that looks the same. And it's quite different from my 8 LI and 6 CF.
It's like LM, but a little bit faster and it has different behavior while sharpening.
Nice honest worker.

Could you post a bigger image with label?

I have a few that are similar, but I do not know for definite what they are:

Attachment 195819

The one laying vertically on the far left, the one partially under the bottom wooden paddle, and the one on the paddle itself.

All appear to be very soft. The one just under the paddle gives a so-so finish while the other two (vintage) hones give a much more refined edge to the razor. The one on the paddle seems to be the finest. It produces a creamy slurry with barely a hint of green.

None of them appear to novaculites, nor very highly indurated slate. They do appear to have the qualities of certain slate honestones like thuringians, but obviously they are not thuringians.

Lord knows what they are!

Regards,
Neil

Here's a couple of closeup shots. One of the surface and on of the label.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doorsch

Here are some pics of Idwall Stones, the left one shows comparable properties but seems also to be more a slate type stone....

The Llyn Idwall (Novaculite of Kirwan) is as the name states a Novaculite Type Stone. The stone is quite brittle and has a flakey look a like on certain areas.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7484/...877b76_c_d.jpg

Here you can see the flaking:
https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8674/...cb23b0_c_d.jpg

Thats how the slurry looks, these stones do not autoslurry. The slurry was created with a DMT 1200 and took around 25 laps.

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7503/...67674f_c_d.jpg

Wm Marples & Sons. Seems to be an old UK tool maker/trader...they had the Shamrock Brand Logo. Check, here are some comparable labels talking about color and writing like the one on your box
http://www.oldtools.co.uk/tools/Marples.html

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Amazing. It's the same label. Fantastic that only minutes after a question is asked highly competent answers appear. Will still need a positive ID but it looks like a unknown hone. Interesting.

That looks like William Marples...now known as Marples tools I believe under that it says Sheffield, Eng..... the last phrase if its like lots of marples stickers is well made tools

Here is an old catalogue:
http://toolemera.com/bkpdf/MarplesCat1938.pdf

William Marples & Sons worked out of the Hibernia Works Sheffield, the company being founded in 1828 (although his father, also William Marples, was working with William junior in the early 1820s.

The company moved a couple of times, ending up in Westfield Terrace, Sheffield, for over a hundred years. In 1860 William junior's sons became partners, the firm now being Wm Marples & Sons.

This gives us a date to investigate what was on offer by people serving the edged tool and grinding trades. I cn't find a catalogue by Marples, but I have found one by a prolific hone, etc, supplier of c, 1890 - A. B. Salmen. Their standard stones, according to their own literature of the time has this description:

"Importer & quarrier. Hones, oilstones, grindstones, scythestones &c, carpenters tool & hand basket importer. Office 1 Castle St. Houndsditch. E.C. Steam works, Salmen St. South Grove, Mile End, London. E. ... [On the reverse] Turkey oilstones, Arkansa ... Water of Ayr stone, Ragstones, Scythe stones, Devon batts, Indian pond stones. Yellow Lake hones, German ... Blue & grey stone slips, Gold testing stones, Clearing stones and curriers' blocks, Turkey, Arkansa & Putty powder, Holy stones, Circular stones, all kinds. Bilston, Blue grit, Newcastle, Yorkshire and other grindstones, also mounted in Iron and Wooden troughs. Importers of tool and painters' baskets".

None of those sound that promising, but most suppliers also imported from the continent and applied their own marks, such as this Salmen branded Belgian coticule:

Attachment 195825

Not very helpful I know, but at least it shows what we could expect to be on offer hone-wise at the time.

Regards,
Neil

The catalogue lists a Best Welsh Oil Stone in a Pine Wood Box thats what i found....the other stones are Washita Stones of different grades, Norton India or Combination Stones (Page 193)

The old catalog ( where in the name of God did you find that????) mention India oilstones and aloxite stones... Could that be related to my hone? I never seen any of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doorsch

The catalogue lists a Best Welsh Oil Stone in a Pine Wood Box thats what i found....the other stones are Washita Stones of different grades, Norton India or Combination Stones (Page 193)

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Yes I saw your post - marvellous catalogue, thanks! I am a bit of a slow typist, so your post wasn't there before I started, and when I uploaded mine, there it was along with several others.

Yes, I agree, Best Welsh seems to be the stone - we still do not know what is though, unfortunately.

Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kristian

The old catalog ( where in the name of God did you find that????) mention India oilstones and aloxite stones... Could that be related to my hone? I never seen any of them.

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Oh i dont know if it really relates to your stone Kristian. But Best Welsh oil stone sounds interesting when you wrote about a Slate type stone....so Neil already wrote in detail about the possibilities what kind of stones have been sold there in the past.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kristian

The old catalog ( where in the name of God did you find that????) mention India oilstones and aloxite stones... Could that be related to my hone? I never seen any of them.

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Unfortunately, no.
Regards,
Neil

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Yes I saw your post - marvellous catalogue, thanks! I am a bit of a slow typist, so your post wasn't there before I started, and when I uploaded mine, there it was along with several others.

Yes, I agree, Best Welsh seems to be the stone - we still do not know what is though, unfortunately.

Regards,
Neil

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I really like the People keeping these sites up with old catalogues.....thats something we all can work with sometimes so i like that information to be spread!! Did you never found an older one from Marples Neil ?

Can somebody confirm the Box beeing Pine wood? I dont know anything about wood ;-)

Well somehow Welsh oilstones sound most promising. I can see some of them are sold on eBay still. They look more grey, but are still slate.

Thanks Neil and Sebastian I'm really impressed by your knowledge on the hones.

When I tested the hone I thought it was a bit course. But when using light oil it produced a finer edge.

Do anyone know what the potential of Welsh oilstones are? They are finishers, sure, but what edge can it produce when properly masted? I meant grid range?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doorsch

I really like the People keeping these sites up with old catalogues.....thats something we all can work with sometimes so i like that information to be spread!! Did you never found an older one from Marples Neil ?

Can somebody confirm the Box beeing Pine wood? I dont know anything about wood ;-)

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I definitely think it is Pinewood!

Looks like aged pine to me but with pictures its kind of hard to tell most soft woods the grains can be similar especially with age

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kristian

When I tested the hone I thought it was a bit course.

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Sometimes it happens, because the surface is not enough smooth. After 2 may be 3 sharpening times (if you sharp a razor with light pressure + without slurry) the surface will became more smooth and it'll cut not so angry.

About grit range... it depends from concrete stone and actual properties may vary.
Without slurry and with smooth surface mine example works as a razor finisher.. app. 8-10RGrit range or little bit higher.

The plus of this stone is it's softness, but at the same time - without auto slurry. Because of that it may be flatten very fast (softness)+ can be used as a finisher (no auto slurry).

Some of this stones (for me - they looks the same):
A Super RARE Natural 7 1 4 034 Dalmore Blue Hone Stone for Razors to Ect | eBay
Natural Honing Stone | eBay
There were two more of them but i've lost links ,(

Attachment 195834Attachment 195835
Attachment 195836Attachment 195837

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kristian

...Do anyone know what the potential of Welsh oilstones are? They are finishers, sure, but what edge can it produce when properly masted? I meant grid range?...

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There are good Welsh Oilstones and not so good Welsh Oilstones. The hard ones are from slaty layers that have undergone induration (great pressure) and which have been subjected to great heat - the greenstone layer in wales, where most types come from, is about a mile long, extending from ancient volcanic action. Some channels of greenstone lay side-by-side with this igneous layer, and the heat has altered them int crystalline rather than slaty rock.

This harder type is often prone to what is called conchoidal fractures (shallow shell-like flakes where it has been knocked or dropped or received an impat fro a point-source) and delamination, as in one of Sebastians pics. The soft types seldom, if ever exhibit this because they are not as crystaline in nature, being comparatively soft.

The hard types can leave a super-sharp edge, but it tends to be a bit rough on the face - too sharp, if you like. Oil certainly brings the best sharpness out, and if the edge is too keen some passes on a chrome-oxide paddle makes the edge a bit smoother. Some of the hard types contain coarse inclusions and are not too good to hone on.

Using a slurry stone to form a slurry on one of the harder types gives you a gritty feeling when honing, so I prefer not to slurry these types. I also find oil a little messy, so I use water with some dish detergent in it - but a very light oil gives the best results.

The softer ones can be worked with a slurry, finishing on clear water and they have a typically smoother cutting edge.

The grit range is hard to assess as they vary so much - you have to make an estimate of a known sample to be honest. I would rather go along with saying that some are finishers and some are pre-finishers.

In addition to this, some welsh hones are stratified with layers and intrusions of hornblende, a darker green rock of Mohs hardness 5 - 6. This tells us that 1) hornblende is sometimes softer than domestic glass and sometimes harder than glass, and 2) hornblende is not a 'distinct' mineral but varies in its composition, some types being composed of iron and magnesium and others of sodium and calcium. It also varies in colour - it can be a very dark green, brown or black according to its constituent parts.

Regards,
Neil

Thanks again all of you. I'll simply test the hone on some razors and see what it brings :-)

Neil can you show closer picture of your hone in the paddle please?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by adrspach

Neil can you show closer picture of your hone in the paddle please?

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No problem:

Attachment 195923

At first sight it appears to be some sort of Grecian Oilstone (same as LI, but patterned with swathes of darker dots) that has become discoloured.

However, after extensive lapping the orange/gold colours remain, and a closer look reveals an almost metallic sparkle to some of the orange areas. Also, it is very soft - almost as soft as some of the 1k synthetics, but the paddle gives an outstanding edge - with certain steels. It likes simple steels like old Sheffield blades are made from, does not like stainless and hates high carbon steels like TI make use of.

I must admit that as a honer, I also hate TI modern 'carbonsong' steel and much prefer steels around 60 rockwell, or the old (vintage, not the new rubbish) Puma, which is around 61.

Regards,
Neil

Thank you Neil. I thought that i saw right. It look like stone from original Yellow Lake quarry. That is the real thing which has nothing to do with any slate sold under that name.

And one more Old Vintage Sharpening Stone Oil Stone | eBay
Attachment 196080