Help for new stone purchase..

I'm shopping for a new finishing stone, and mostly realize the variety and differences among them: natural or man made bonded with resin metal or glass, resulting in different slurry, speed, feel and durability. So after the Norton 8000, I am looking at items from Shapton, Naniwa and Suehiro.
Shapton Pro Cream 12,000 $70. Shapton Glass 16,000 $130. Naniwa Super Stone Ebi 20mm 10,000 $85. Naniwa Chosera 10,000 $275 (:dropjaw:gulp!) Suehiro Gokuma (w/ base) 10,000 $150.

Well, it's not just the money but it does matter which is why I can live with Norton 8000 instead of going to a Coticule. But it's tough to decide as I could get both the 12k Shapton Pro and the 10k Super Stone for the price of the 10k Suehiro. The Shapton Glass is reasonable but is going from 8 to 16k too much of a jump?

I recall Lynn thanking Sam for an oil stone but can't remember what that brand was. Anyway I won't mind a boat load of advice from the crew here before I go overboard. Stay straight Y'all

Yeap the only problem of the fine synthetics is ......the prise . Otherwise we have no other complains about them :rant:

For the question on the grit jump. Going from 8k to 16k is very common and reasonable. Most of the time it's not about grit rating but rather particle size. When you double grit rating all you do is decrease the particle size by half. For example say you stick with one brand for simplicity say shapton. If you go from 1k to 4k, the 4k particle size is only a quarter the size of a 1k particle, and going from 4k to 16k, the 16k is also only a quarter the size of the 4k. As Einstein would say it's all relative.

what I would say on choice. I have a shapton glass 16k and a PHIG. And I really like th 16k but I'm still learning how to get the most out of it. I hardly use the PHIG. And I have a suehiro 20k ordered and waiting to be shipped. But if you get the suehiro 10k, unless I'm mistaken it should have a particle size equal to a shapton 15k.

But one thing to keep in mind grit rating between companies can vary significantly. For example, suehiro 20k has a 0.5 micron size particle and shapton 30k is 0.49 micron. A Norton 8k is at about 3 microns while a Lansky super sapphire 2k is claimed to be also 3 microns. So when looking at stones be sure to know the particle size rather than grit unless you might be going backwards

Hope that helps

Ah, so right!! Apple in eye of beholder and true grit relative pilgrim. I do have an oil PHIG but it has a vein that is counter-productive. Unless wiser men suggest otherwise, I'm inclined to go for the Suehiro 10k, especially if it may perform like a 15k stone. It comes with a base and the dollar is strong! The Shapton 12k or the Naniwa 10k would probably work just as well for me, but..I always (try to) buy the best (or close to it) shoes and wear them for a long time. Thx for your thoughts

Don't forget that you have the option of the Shapton pro 15k that runs around $127. Its Thicker than the Shapton Glass 16k for around the same price. It's cheaper than the Gokumyo 10k, so with them being the same particle size it comes down to finding out if the gokumyo is better and is the extra $30 is worth it. That's if you go in that direction. Happy Honing.

Well r-8 i agree with you and sure i wont be sad having ordered @ $113 online + free shipping.
I was shocked that supplier listed $650 for the Shapton Pro 30k, so the 15k seems very fair.
Also, I saw the Shapton Glass 16k for $130 but they listed the 10k for $172!! :hmmm:
Guess a few weeks before I get back to this, after postage and trying it out. Thx for thoughts.

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Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

So when looking at stones be sure to know the particle size rather than grit unless you might be going backwards

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It's more complicated than that. Particle shapes & friability play a part also. eg .5 micron diamond behaves differently to .5 micron CrO.

The behaviour of the stones mentioned in this thread are quite different to each other.
The 12/15k Pro is quite different to the 16k GS. The Pro is a more aggressive cutter & the GS a better polisher.

As for grit jumps it depends again on the stones. The 5k Shap Pro is easily followed by the 12k Pro. The 8k -16k GS is a standard progression.

Altho I exclusively use the Pros atm, I never recommend them for the average hobbyist. There are much easier stones out there to use.

I got a Nani 12k and that worked out fine. A Zulu grey tops it off to smooth it out for me. 8k to 16 is done but seems like a lot to me. I have never been tempted to jump from my 8k to my Zulu for the 1 reason of laps. I do about 150 to 200 in my regular progression on the Zulu just to smooth out the 12k. Can't imagine trying to get that without the 12k in between. Makes me think I should experiment with it when I have that much time to play around :<0)

From personal experienced the Naniwa SS 12k is a really good finisher following the Norton 8k, the Shapton's seems to do better following their own progression. No experienced with the Gokumbo.

No need to look at particles size or microns size, the finest doesn't mean the better edge. If money is tight, chromium oxide on a pasted strop is another option.

I must concur with the other posters above that particle size is not the only factor in the honing equation. Particle hardness and shape and the type of binder means a lot if not more than size when it comes to the edge you are looking for. Thus is the reason honing is more of an art than a science. You can make just about any edge one desires by fiddling around with different stones because of the many different particle properties. Books have been written based on the properties of stones alone thus one thread much less one post can describe what needs to be looked at when stone hunting. Lol

A lot depends on your experience and how much honing you intend to do.

If you are fairy new to honing and are just maintaining a few razors, keep it simple. The 12K Super Stone is a no brainer and very well proven performer, post 8K. And if later, you progress to the GS20k, the 12K SS is a nice and proven step to it.

As said many of the stones listed will have a learning curve and may not deliver expected results.

There is a reason so many have made the 12KSS a key component of their progression, it is also a very aggressive and versatile stone.

You can re-invent the wheel… but why?

Many thanks to all the posters in reply to my question. The insight & advice ...Priceless! Anyway, I decided to go with the Naniwa 12kSS, to succeed from the Norton 8k
Mainly because of the differences between the resin bound and the glass stones, but also for the closer progression rather than going from 8 to 15-20. While much of my collection is for art and U.S. history, there are many that just need some help to be shave worthy. So this stone is going to get a workout and I expect some nice results, after 15 years of shaving with nothing finer than the 8k. Maybe one day I'll pop for a GS and a finer polish, but I first need to peddle some more shavers. Again, thx to all.

Good choice. I have the Naniwa 1, 5, 8, 12. After the 12, I use a pasted 4 sided strop and that smooths out the (fins) edge nicely, then it goes to the leather strop. I liked the diamond paste followed by the Chrom.

Paster

I have been wanting the Suehiro 20k for some time but the pricing keeps pushing me away.

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Originally Posted by jgkeegan

I have been wanting the Suehiro 20k for some time but the pricing keeps pushing me away.

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What price have you been seeing.

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Originally Posted by jgkeegan

I have been wanting the Suehiro 20k for some time but the pricing keeps pushing me away.

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Originally Posted by rlmnshvstr8

What price have you been seeing.

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Lately, I have seen prices for the full sized stones ranging from the low $200s to the high $400s and an eBay offer of $300 ($50/month/6 months).

If I came across an edge pro sized one (1" x 6"), I'd probably give it some thought.

--james

Welcome back James ! :tu

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Welcome back James ! :tu

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Why thanks. I was never really gone as in gone; more like living a lot of changes in my life many of which are still ongoing.

As always, this is good place for me.

I've had the Suehiro 20k for 6 weeks, and although more an amateur, I have enjoyed it's ways. Now, it's expensive and in itself takes time to use properly, I'd simply say that it is not a problem to go from a 10k to the 20k. It is a stone that requires some learning to use well, so don't just pull it out of the box and expect miracles, it takes work, but is worth it. You won't dish it it your lifetime, it's a durable stone. For a pro, it may need lapping now and then, but in general it's hard and flat. Enjoy. Bob

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Originally Posted by bobski

I've had the Suehiro 20k for 6 weeks, and although more an amateur, I have enjoyed it's ways. Now, it's expensive and in itself takes time to use properly, I'd simply say that it is not a problem to go from a 10k to the 20k. It is a stone that requires some learning to use well, so don't just pull it out of the box and expect miracles, it takes work, but is worth it. You won't dish it it your lifetime, it's a durable stone. For a pro, it may need lapping now and then, but in general it's hard and flat. Enjoy. Bob

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My anal nature compels me to lap my synthetics after each use. I was curious about the maintenance on a Suehiro 20k. Actually I have read some complimentary reviews about several of the Suehiro line.

--james

James,

I'm a bit picky re the flatness of my hones. The 20k Gok was gridded when 1st bought, then lapped till all was erased, then repeated the process. I own a set of feeler gauges and using a straight edge placed on the stone, I could not fit the finest feeler blade under the straight edge. Now that is flat! Good luck Bob

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Originally Posted by bobski

James,

I'm a bit picky re the flatness of my hones. The 20k Gok was gridded when 1st bought, then lapped till all was erased, then repeated the process. I own a set of feeler gauges and using a straight edge placed on the stone, I could not fit the finest feeler blade under the straight edge. Now that is flat! Good luck Bob

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I am glad to read that. I am too. In fact I compulsively lap my synthetics after each use. Jnat, coti and Arkies less as well as an Apache which appeals to me.

The 20k Gok is going to have t wait a bit. I have just experienced some unexpected expenses, some medical along with my toilet and washing machine kicking off during the past few weeks. I actually polled out one of my Japanese straights, western style, and was about to take photos for a sale when I regained my senses. :-)

--jams