Looking for first set of stones

Hello,

I've been straight shaving for a while now, and my PIF'ed razor is in need of a honing. I've been wanting to learn the hart of honing ever since I got in to straight shaving.

I'm primarily looking at synthetic stones, as from what I've gathered it seems easier to get consistant results with them.

My first choice was a Norton 4000/8000 combination stone, they seem to get alot of love. Along with the Norton I was thinking about a Chinese 12k. I was also looking at a Naniwa kit, but the price is putting me off a bit.

I will of course also be getting a lapping stone, looking at the DMT 325 at the moment.

But I am in need of advice. What would be a total rookies best bet? I'm not on a budget, but I don't want to shell out any outrageous amounts on my first hones, I don't even know if I'll like it.

Any help or advice is welcome.

Best regards

Naniwa makes a 3/8 combination, which if you don't need to bevel set. Then you could add to it later with the 12k and 1k. and I agree with the DMT 325 as a lapping choice.

I started with a Norton 4/8 and Chinese 12k. I did not learn how to set a bevel on the 4k side of the Norton and the Chinese 12 did not work for me. So this set up to me was frustrating and I quit trying.

The Naniwa stones were my fool proof honing attempt. I have the 3k,5k,8k,12k. I added the Chosera 1k for bevel setting and the DMT 325 for lapping.

It was worth the investment as it has made honing pretty easy and interesting. Too they are so easy to learn on that I've built confidence I can move on to other ways of honing in the future.

+1 to Hanzo.

I'd say most definitely get the DMT 325. Your stones will need lapped when you get them.

A Norton 4/8 is a good budget friendly choice, but I don't like how soft the 4k is. More so preference than quality. I'm more of a splash and go stone type also. I own the shapton glass series and they work very well but can easily create a fin/burr very quickly. But I would try the naniwa series 3k and 8k because I hear they are more novice friendly.

Then get yourself a good 1k bevel setter like the Chosera 1k or shapton 1k or 2k.

That will get you by. But if you want a finisher look at the naniwa 12k. And then save and get a suehiro G20 if you want to go a little further after getting some practice in. .

That's my 2¢. But be careful. HAD is very contagious and you will be wanting more.

The 4/8 Norton is all you need. Unless your going to start restoring and collecting piles of razors a King 1k will serve you very well.
If you want to tip toe into this then get a barbers hone to keep what you have going. All the skills of honing can be learned on that and they can be found all over the place. I shaved off that Norton for a year before I drop any serious change into stones and I still didn't go too crazy. I have the luxury of having friends around me with every kind of rock you can read about so I have tried more than the average guy.
If your one of those that like all your ducks in a row, and from the same family, then start out with Naniwa and proceed as you learn. I have heard all the opinions and listened to all the reasons. That is about as middle of the road as I can come up with. Enjoy yourself. It sounds like you are being smart about all this as compared to running on emotion. That alone will save you time and money.

The Norton 4k/8k and the Cnat/PHIG/"Chinese 12k" are almost all I ever use. On the rare occasion that I bring a truly dull blade to life, I start on the Norton 1k…but even those I used to start on the 4k, it just takes time.

You can start with the classic norton 4/8k if you live in the American continent. For anywhere else, the naniwa ordered from Japan would be a cheaper but also reliable choice (US post is expensive for overseas orders). And then, if you would like to, you can add a Chinese stone with a naniwa chocera 1k. If you happen not to like the stones or honing, you can sell them quite easily and get back most of your money.
I started with a king 1k, a Belgian blue and a Chinese stone. It was fun, and I still use that Chinese stone.

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

I started with a king 1k, a Belgian blue and a Chinese stone. It was fun, and I still use that Chinese stone.

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Thanks for calling it a Chinese stone. As a natural stone, it has no grit designation.

The Norton 4 and 8k is all you need to start. If you cannot get a shave-able edge off of the 8k, NO higher grit hone is going to fix your honing shortcomings. If you intend to do a lot of honing, a lapping plate is very helpful. If honing is going to be a rare thing for you, then a couple sheets of wet/dry sandpaper is all you need.

The above responses all have merit, however let me suggest another route.

You could have the razor professionally honed and then invest in that Naniwa 12K.. and stop there for a while. Assuming that you don't drastically damage the razor - banging it on something, for instance - you can keep it in top notch shaving condition with touch ups on the 12K SS. (I would avoid the chinese stone.) Later on, if you realize that you are truly hooked on the sport and you want to start doing rescue work on ebay or antique shop razors, you can add the stones recommended above.

Seriously, barring physical damage, a razor needs to be honed only once. After that we can maintain it forever with our finishing stone(s).

Unless, of course, you want to hone just for the fun of it.. that's a whole other animal. I follow a "6 for 6" regimen: after 6 shaves I give the razor 6 strokes on whatever finishing stone I used and never have to hone again. I find myself, however, inventing test sequences so I can compare edges from different stones just to be able to hone something. But I can quit anytime I want to, honest!


rs,
Tack

tack has a very good approach ,, not a lot of money in having it honed right then maintain it ,, you only have the one razor ? this is the best advise , except for the one 10pups gave you,, a barbers hone is inexpensive and if you cant shave off of it then your honing skills aren't going to get any better with more hones ,, Ron and Pup told me to try a barbers hone I received the other day , and I don't hone at all after more than 2 years into this , but I used this barbers hone on a razor due for a refresh. as instructed and I have shaved off of it for 4 days . it has produce a nice shaving edge so think about it. most guys are wanting to hone before they even know how to shave or what a truly shave ready is , so go the cheaper route and see what happens , ill say this ive not spent much money having my razors pro honed and after that they don't need anything but leather or a few strokes on a 12k naniwa or my Zulu for who knows how long some are 2 years old and still going. just my thoughts oh and by the way thanks to Ron and Pup for the advise it was an eye opener

Wow, I am overwhelmed by all the advice, thanks alot!

I do live in Sweden, and have found the Norton to be hard to find here, and when found it's very expensive. I did however find the Naniwa 3k/8k in Germany for what seems to be a decent price at 79 Euro (https://www.fine-tools.com/naniwa-stones.html)

My straight collection only consists of one gold dollar that is not shave ready, and a PIF'ed Wilbert Cutlery 5/8 full hollow that was honed before it got PIF'ed to me. The later one is however in need of a touchup as it started to pull.

At the moment I am moving more and more away from DE's and towards straights, so the collection is likely to grow over time. I do think the ones I will be buying will be shave ready. I like the possibility to have both a 3k and a 8k though, if the edge I get from the 8k will provide me with a good shave.

The Chinese 12k looks good for my budget, but I've read so many mixed reviews wich makes me unconvinced.

While I'm here I'll throw another question out here, do you guys know any European shop that sells DMT 325 or any other good lapping stone?

Best regards

I like the naniwa 12k to start with, just to reiterate what has already been said. I understand your concern of trying to keep it affordable. The thing with hones is unless you do an incredible amount of honing or, God forbid, drop or lose it, you'll have it for the rest of your life. The ease of use of a synthetic theshave from, and quick cutting of the naniwa makes it my pick. Good luck with whatever direction you choose to go.

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Originally Posted by jfk742

I like the naniwa 12k to start with, just to reiterate what has already been said. I understand your concern of trying to keep it affordable. The thing with hones is unless you do an incredible amount of honing or, God forbid, drop or lose it, you'll have it for the rest of your life. The ease of use of a synthetic theshave from, and quick cutting of the naniwa makes it my pick. Good luck with whatever direction you choose to go.

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I was thinking about that as well, but with my very limited knowledge I am worried that the 12k will not be enough? As it sits now it's either the combo stone or the 12k, I can't do both.

So let's put it this way; What is the combo stone capeable of in terms of how dull blades is it capable of getting shave ready? And the same question for the 12k?

I just found a lapping stone called EZE-LAP Diamond Sharpening Stones on the same site that I found the Naniwa on. Does anyone know anything about this brand?

The stones are 203x76mm and come in grits of 150/250/400/600/1200.

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Originally Posted by Doxster

I just found a lapping stone called EZE-LAP Diamond Sharpening Stones on the same site that I found the Naniwa on. Does anyone know anything about this brand?

The stones are 203x76mm and come in grits of 150/250/400/600/1200.

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They are pretty much the same as DMT. But since you are looking at an order on fine tools, you can also get the atoma plates. They are worth their money.

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Originally Posted by Vasilis

They are pretty much the same as DMT. But since you are looking at an order on fine tools, you can also get the atoma plates. They are worth their money.

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What grit number would be my best bet? 250 or 400?

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Originally Posted by Doxster

What grit number would be my best bet? 250 or 400?

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It depends on what you intend to do with them. For lapping, something coarse would be a better choice. For slurry making, you can buy a finer one.
I find the atoma 400 to be good at both lapping and slurry making.
If you intend to buy the eze lap plates, the finer grades are notorious for shedding diamond particles when you use them for slurry making, like the DMT, making them a bad choice for raising slurry.

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Originally Posted by Doxster

But I am in need of advice. What would be a total rookies best bet? I'm not on a budget, but I don't want to shell out any outrageous amounts on my first hones, I don't even know if I'll like it.

Any help or advice is welcome.

Best regards

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As you can see there are Many Alternatives out there.

I would suggest that you have it honed by someone who know what they are doing. I do have a favorite pro/PM me for a reference. Right now I'm up to my Arse in Alligators/honing and cleaning up for some guys or I'd offer to help you out for just shipping to and from.

Then once you have a truly shave ready razor in hand you will have something to gauge your 'touch ups' by.

The Barbers hone and Naniwa 12K just for touching up are nice. If you want to go lower then the Norton 4/8K is a great stone.

Please keep in mind that while just mis-stropping can foul up an edge, a hone's damage can be 1000 times worse and much harder to correct.

Here's a video to give you some ideas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

I hope this has been of some help and hasn't added to the confusion. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Doxster

I was thinking about that as well, but with my very limited knowledge I am worried that the 12k will not be enough? As it sits now it's either the combo stone or the 12k, I can't do both.

So let's put it this way; What is the combo stone capeable of in terms of how dull blades is it capable of getting shave ready? And the same question for the 12k?

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The Naniwa 3/8 is obviously more versatile and you will have no problems getting a shave ready razor on the 8k. You could remove small nicks and refresh the bevel it will just take longer as it would with the Norton 4 / 8. The Naniwa 12k is a great finishing stone but less versatile due to the single high grit. If you believe that you will be investing in more razors in the future then it is unlikely you will stick with just 1 stone so get what is best for you immediate future and it will grow as your razor collection does. The atoma 400 is an amazing lapping stone. Very quick with the added bonus of being light enough to use by hand easily without having to resort to using a stone holder.

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Originally Posted by eddy79

The Naniwa 3/8 is obviously more versatile and you will have no problems getting a shave ready razor on the 8k. You could remove small nicks and refresh the bevel it will just take longer as it would with the Norton 4 / 8. The Naniwa 12k is a great finishing stone but less versatile due to the single high grit. If you believe that you will be investing in more razors in the future then it is unlikely you will stick with just 1 stone so get what is best for you immediate future and it will grow as your razor collection does. The atoma 400 is an amazing lapping stone. Very quick with the added bonus of being light enough to use by hand easily without having to resort to using a stone holder.

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Thanks eddy!

I'm leaning towards the combostone at the moment. I like to have options.

I'm also leaning towards EZE-LAP due to being cheaper than Atoma. Is 400 the grit of choice there as well? Is 250 to coarse?

This thread is immensely helpful, thank you gentleman. Aces!

The atoma is 400 as well. The atoma 400 blows the dmt 325 away in cutting speed and the atoma you can get replacement grit which you can't do with any of the others. I brought a 1200 atoma and the replacement 400 grit and put the 400 on the back of the 1200 to make a dual grit stone. I am unsure on the ezelaps weight but the dmt is hard to use without a stone holder as it is so heavy. The atoma is very light and easy to use by hand

10Pups, what do you mean when you say barbers hones can be found all over the place? I have had some difficulty finding one.

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Originally Posted by Doxster

While I'm here I'll throw another question out here, do you guys know any European shop that sells DMT 325 or any other good lapping stone?

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www.sliqhaq.se sells DMT, Norton and Naniwa

The OP could also do as I did and buy a stone that a one stone hone can be achieved on. Although I didn't have any success for the first few months, after many attempts and reaching out for help I now can successfully hone a razor.. The downside to this method is if you get a dud of a stone you'll be frustrated forever and it's much much harder to learn. You'll also probably acquire more stones in the long run anyways.

For me the problem is honing on synthetic stones I don't know how to!

But they are great places to start and less frustrating. The naniwa 3/8k I've heard is just a stellar stone!

It's really a YMMV thing. If a certain set of stones or single stone "speaks" to you or catches your attention go for it.
Worst case scenario you end up selling it/them and moving on to something else or keeping it and using it for something else.

After a certain amount of time you will become good with your stones whichever kind they may be.

There is a ton of information on different stones here on SRP and its mind boggling how much knowledge our members have in different areas. Lots of guys specialize in a certain stone or set of stones and can be a vault of knowledge.

I'm sure you'll find the right stone for you. :gl:

I guess you already have :p

After alot of back and forth I went with the Naniwa 3k/8k combo stone, an Atoma 400 lapping stone and a stone holder. I received the stones yesterday and had my first go with them today.

So I had my first go with the stones, lapping went well under running water, got them all even.

I started with my 5$ gold dollar straight from Aliexpress, wich I obviously don't care about. That didn't work, that one is in bad need of a bevel setting. Wich is a later project.

I moved on to my PIF'ed Wilbert Cutlery straight, that was honed by someone far more knowledgeable than me. Did 25-30 straight strokes on the 3000 side, and about as many on the 8000 side. My arm became very smooth after the honing, unfortunately I shaved this morning so it will have to wait with the test shave.

Yeah the GD is not the best to start off with being new to honing. I have one because a friend of mine dared me to try one as a challenge. It is one of my favorite shavers but there was a LOT of work I had to do to fix the geometry and design issues that are commonly associated with the GD's. For example, creating even hone wear on both sides of the spine, which ended up being A LOT of spine wear, and to remove the shoulder, so it doesn't hit the stone. I had to do all this before I even dared to touch the edge which would barely cut butter relatively speaking.

Your right, you won't ever really know how well the edge is until you shave. But using a few test can help you to determine if you are getting close. I will see, for the bevel set, how well it cuts my arm hair. It must pop a single selected arm hair with ease though there will be a slight resistance, and this is done without any blade pressure. 95% of the time this is a good bevel set test, but I do have some arm hair that does not sometimes like to be cut no matter how well the bevel is set the other 5%.

Now it's controversial, and I will not argue here on the forum. Bad form and all. But one of my test to tell me if I am close to an edge I like is the HHT. And I recommend using one type of hair from only one person from only one area. With differing hair types, it will make it hard to get conistant CALLIBRATED results. You can find how to use this test not as a parlor trick but as a diagnostic tool in the library. For me the hair has to pop with ease and no forcing it to cut all along the edge. I think on the article mentioned above its a High HHT3 and above. Maybe a HHT4 and above. I can't remember. What I know is that it works FOR ME. again I'm not here to ague if any chooses to. I'm just here to try to help.

When I do the above tests I normally go into my shave shave ready with maybe once in a while a little tweaking here or there. But they work for me. But what helped the most was having someone more experienced physically stand beside me helping me along. And in a short time I was able to get these test calibrated and working for me the way I like and now I am getting consistent honing result mostly every time. Hope this might help in future attempts.

I forgot got to mention that for the bevel set it must pop the arm hair at the base of the hair if not a mm or 2 above all along the edge of the razor for me to tell if I'm ready to examine the edge and move on. The bevel set is KEY for every honing session. Without a good bevel set you are up the creek without a paddle going backwards. And I will say there are MANY aspects to the bevel, too many to mention in just one post, that you will learn that will take you some time learning for you to learn what we mean when we say "the bevel is set".

God Bless,
Neil

Thanks for the info Neil! Very much appreciated!

I am at a loss finding a "honemeister" close to me, traditional shaving is not something common in Sweden. Straight razor shaving even less so, so you can imagine how common it is for people to hone their own razors...

If you know a youtube guru that deserves a subscription (preferably with tutorials etc) I'm all ears :-)

You might want to start here, go the Library/Additional Resources (scroll down to the end)/ Shaving Related Help Files/ scroll down to Honing Related/ Honing Videos.

There are some good videos there, for additional help, search YouTube for Lynn Abrams and GSSixgun. Both have extensive videos posted that cover most any honing situation you will encounter.

For videos I looked up Lynn, Gssixgun, and mainaman. All of these guys are here on SRP. but mainaman's vids I used to help learn my jnats.

But for honemeister help look up Bernard he has a few post in the head shaving forum here on SRP. and unless I am mistaken he is in Norway. Though that is another country over from you he has been here long enough that he might be able to help you in some way or point you to someone he knows. Hope this helps.

Edit: sorry I got his name all wrong. His name is Birnando. His member page is here http://straightrazorpalace.com/members/birnando.html

God Bless,
Neil

Can't add anything to what's been said already, except, it is doable with video instruction only. The first few times, I actually kept a video on my iPad next to me so I could verify that I was doing it "right".

I have the Naniwas and they are easy to work with, and once you get the hang of it, you'll recognize the change in feel on the stone when you hit it right.

Having said that, getting some in-person help would be best. I haven't managed to do that yet.

PS-- Stay away from the Gold Dollar to learn on. They often have lots of geometry issues.

Thought I'd give a bit of an update, a success story so to speak.

I had been watching Lynn Abrams videos for a bit and was eager to go honing. I however, did not do as few strokes as he does on his videos about refreshing the edge.

First honing: I think I did around 30-40 strokes on the 3k side, and about as many on the 8k side. The razor did put a very bald spot on my arm, but it couldn't cut any hairs if raising the edge above the skin.

First shave: I had shaved the same day before my first honing session, and went away for a week the day after. I forgot ALL of my gear for my holiday, so the test shave was on 7-8 days worth of growth. Not an ideal situation to try my honing skills in... I wasn't impressed, it did the job but felt very harsh.

Second honing: After the first shave I decided I need to go back to the hones. While honing it felt much better, like I scored a better angle or something. Did 20 strokes on the 3k side and 20-30 strokes on the 8k side.

Second shave: Probably my best straight razor shave yet. Absolutley no irritation what so ever, almost BBS (not really going for BBS but when it happens it's nice). The only remark I had is that it still felt a bit harsh, might be my technique or that the previous owner who honed it for me the first time used a polishing stone.

Third shave: Basically an exact replica of the second shave.

I'm kind of curious, how is it possible to get a very nice shaving edge the second time you hone? Ever? I was dead certain that this will skill will take months to develop, I'm almost a bit dissapointed. (Do note that I am in no way saying that I'm any good at honing, I still have a very long way to go, but the edge that I maintained worked perfectly for me)

First of all, congrats on your first successful shave after a self hone. It's really an accomplishment and a sense of pride when one does such.

Now what I say next is not meant to burst a bubble or anything. It will take months for you to learn this skill and years to master. It's just the goal you are looking for is not just a shaveable edge but a smooth harshless shave also. You went at it sort of shooting in the dark and you hit the target this time. But be warned there will come a time when it will be a difficult. And through difficulty is when the real learning begins. But for now enjoy your victory and still try learning more.

As a side note the harsh edge, if I am interpreting your definition of harsh correctly, could be a slight burr, micro chippy, or slightly ragged edge. Avoiding these is a skill in itself. I bought a razor from the bay once and it was labeled shave ready and honed on a naniwa 12k. So I was thinking that the guy might have known what he was doing. When I got the razor I looked at the edge under my scope and it was like mountains and valleys. Yeah it would shave my arm hairs easily but I would not dare put it on my face and it took me about 2 days and some help from a buddy to make it ahaveable, and it still needs work but it is better than when I received it. Sorry hit the rabbit trail again.

Again congrats on your first edge. Keep at it when you hit your first bump in the road, take it as a challenge. Like when someone tells you that you can't do something and you do it and learn to succeed just to prove them wrong. Happy honingNeil

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Originally Posted by Doxster

Thought I'd give a bit of an update, a success story so to speak.

I had been watching Lynn Abrams videos for a bit and was eager to go honing. I however, did not do as few strokes as he does on his videos about refreshing the edge.

First honing: I think I did around 30-40 strokes on the 3k side, and about as many on the 8k side. The razor did put a very bald spot on my arm, but it couldn't cut any hairs if raising the edge above the skin.

First shave: I had shaved the same day before my first honing session, and went away for a week the day after. I forgot ALL of my gear for my holiday, so the test shave was on 7-8 days worth of growth. Not an ideal situation to try my honing skills in... I wasn't impressed, it did the job but felt very harsh.

Second honing: After the first shave I decided I need to go back to the hones. While honing it felt much better, like I scored a better angle or something. Did 20 strokes on the 3k side and 20-30 strokes on the 8k side.

Second shave: Probably my best straight razor shave yet. Absolutley no irritation what so ever, almost BBS (not really going for BBS but when it happens it's nice). The only remark I had is that it still felt a bit harsh, might be my technique or that the previous owner who honed it for me the first time used a polishing stone.

Third shave: Basically an exact replica of the second shave.

I'm kind of curious, how is it possible to get a very nice shaving edge the second time you hone? Ever? I was dead certain that this will skill will take months to develop, I'm almost a bit dissapointed. (Do note that I am in no way saying that I'm any good at honing, I still have a very long way to go, but the edge that I maintained worked perfectly for me)

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And I too am curious. What strop(s) do you use; are you flipping the blade with fingers or wrist? Is your stropping motion light-handed, fluid feeling, precise and always keeping the razor spine in contact with the strop?

Perhaps I am more clumsy than the next guy but, after a few months (which was maybe 20 shaves) I was still putting nicks in my strop. Stones+stones or even one barber's hone are complicated to master and mostly wasted until stropping is effective. So, is your stropping effective?

Harsh but decent shaves already, by the way, sounds pretty good. :tu

If harsh coming off the hones try stropping throughly. 100+ on both linen and leather and see if that helps. Getting shaving is just the start now comes the refinement of the edge. Good luck