Should I lap or not?

Well normally I enjoy lapping a stone, it's part of the honing process. But today, something a little different arrived in the mail. I was the lucky winner of an SRD extra select grade vintage coti.

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As you can see, on the one hand we have SRD stamps,

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on the other, a dished stone.

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I figured I'd touch up another recent acquisition, an unknown early cast steel razor, and the result was great.


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It's a small stone, 6x1.5, but worth every cent. So I figure, I'll use it for touch ups and finishing and try to keep the stamps on, but one day, I might have to bring out the Atoma.

What would you guys do?

Take a picture and lap that bad boy!
Seriously, it's your hone so do what you want, I dont really see the point in saving stamps to the detriment of a razor but if you're happy to use as is it's all good. I daresay you have enough coticules to be getting on with so no need to get rid of those pretty stamps. For now...

The dishing is minimal, the results are good and you like the idea of keeping the stamps. Why would you even consider lapping it, then? Because flatter is better?

It isn't. If the dishing were more extreme, it might be useful. But even if it were quite dished and you would just finish on it (i.e. minimal impact on hone and razor), the benefit of lapping it flat would likely still be quite minimal.

Amazing coti - looks likeVeignete . Im shure you will be very pleased with it , enloy and yes lapp it .

I am guessing that lapping a narrow hone doesn't make much difference as you are using an X stroke anyway? Can anyone verify that in case I do get such a narrow hone?

Bob

You have the box anyway, so just take a pic and lap it to true... Stones like that are worth top dollar because they are top quality stones, not because they are stamped

JMHO.
If you are honing smiley razors, let 'er be!
~Richard

I had an Escher blue/green with original ink stamps. I used it occasionally and lightly, didn't lap it because of the ink stamps, until one day I lapped it. I had taken a photo of the stamps. I would leave it as is for the time being. You can always lap it, but once lapped the ink is gone. If it is performing admirably for you, why mess with success ? :)

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Originally Posted by BobH

I am guessing that lapping a narrow hone doesn't make much difference as you are using an X stroke anyway? Can anyone verify that in case I do get such a narrow hone?

Bob

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I have found no problem in doing consistent half-strokes on a 1.5" (~4cm) wide hone, which is quite a common size. After a bit of practice, I am able to do consistent half-strokes on a 1.5 cm wide coticule.

I am afraid I'm not following your logic. If there is a need for a 100% flat hone, why would the type of stroke have any influence on that need?

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Originally Posted by kcb5150

You have the box anyway, so just take a pic and lap it to true... Stones like that are worth top dollar because they are top quality stones, not because they are stamped

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I don't want to say anything negative, but no. These hones are worth top dollar to certain buyers exactly because they are stamped with a (subjective) qualification from X years ago by lord knows who. And if it's such a good stone, why keep the box or take pictures? Why do they matter so much then, if they are inconsequential in determining the price these hones go for? It is why Eschers with labels fetch much more than Thuringians without label or box, even when they are recognisable as Thuringians. I don't know what the OP's hone cost and nor do I care, but I'll venture a wild guess and say that, without the stamp or box, that hone would have gone for a fair bit less money.

I'm not criticising you here Frankenstein, I'm sure it will be a fine hone and you spent what you were willing to spend.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I have found no problem in doing consistent half-strokes on a 1.5" (~4cm) wide hone, which is quite a common size. After a bit of practice, I am able to do consistent half-strokes on a 1.5 cm wide coticule.

I am afraid I'm not following your logic. If there is a need for a 100% flat hone, why would the type of stroke have any influence on that need?

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Never used such a narrow hone so was wondering if a lapped hone was really necessary as I thought you would use an X stroke on a narrow hone. On a 3 inch wide hone using a straight up and back stroke I can see it being more necessary. Just curious really.

Bob

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Originally Posted by BobH

Never used such a narrow hone so was wondering if a lapped hone was really necessary as I thought you would use an X stroke on a narrow hone. On a 3 inch wide hone using a straight up and back stroke I can see it being more necessary. Just curious really.

Bob

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Bob, I've often wondered about honing in the past, after seeing severely dished and uneven stones. When I used the stone yesterday the edge made good contact with the stone at all times, and the result was exactly the reason I bought the stone in the first place. It should be noted that 95% of my razors are old and warped - so rolling x is really the only way I hone.
It can't be seen so well in the second last photo, but the stone is actually much more dished than the photo shows. This is/was a well used hone.
My real problem is that I'd like to use slurry on the stone, and so if I do it will only become worse.

save one end or the other, I did that with one of my stamped Coticules. It was easy for me as I only had the round stamp left

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Originally Posted by rodb

save one end or the other, I did that with one of my stamped Coticules. It was easy for me as I only had the round stamp left

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Agreed - that stamp is always a symbol of it's provenance I guess, and more importantly, looks really, really cool, in my opinion of course.:)

Probably can get away with more dish with cotis because of the one stone honing deal. It becomes a nasty issue when you have a progression and each rock is out of true in different ways. Or a really hard rock with waves is bad news.

I didn't bother lapping the choice belgian I got last year with the stamp as it was near enough for me to rather have the stamp for now as I lacked the box and wanted to give the stone a proper shakedown first. It didn't cause any issues for me. I did lap a huge stamped one I got a couple of weeks ago though as it was out enough to be an annoyance with a wide stone.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

I don't want to say anything negative, but no. These hones are worth top dollar to certain buyers exactly because they are stamped with a (subjective) qualification from X years ago by lord knows who. And if it's such a good stone, why keep the box or take pictures? Why do they matter so much then, if they are inconsequential in determining the price these hones go for? It is why Eschers with labels fetch much more than Thuringians without label or box, even when they are recognisable as Thuringians. I don't know what the OP's hone cost and nor do I care, but I'll venture a wild guess and say that, without the stamp or box, that hone would have gone for a fair bit less money.

I'm not criticising you here Frankenstein, I'm sure it will be a fine hone and you spent what you were willing to spend.

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Since we are talking about the issue of stamps relevant to collectibility here, I'm happy to explain my position on it. This is the most expensive coti I have ever bought, but not by far. I have had two of the same brand before - one I got off another member, (for I think almost the same price), and one I bought a few months ago (it was about $50). The one from another member was an outstanding hone, but circumstances forced me to sell it. The other, which is also good, had a crack or something on it. So I bought this for three reasons - one, it was late at night and I was sitting at home alone with a bottle of wine, two, I am familiar with the brand and quality of the stone, and three, for me, two of the most interesting aspects of our hobby are honing and the history/historicity of the implements we use. I was genuinely interested to see what SRD considered a 'Choice Grade' hone, and while I don't have much experience with this one yet, so far I think SRD knew what he was talking about.

Of interest, last night I was pondering this subject, and thinking someone would bring up whether it was worth it. In my case, a good coticule cost me about $1500US - Price Breakdown: lack of experience $$$, not being able to trust sellers $$$, postage costs $$$, mistakes $$$, 9 or 10 other cotis, and then the price of the good one.

And is it worth it? In my case, after about 7 or 8 years of using a razor, I probably enjoy it more now than when I first started.

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Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Since we are talking about the issue of stamps relevant to collectibility here, I'm happy to explain my position on it. This is the most expensive coti I have ever bought, but not by far. I have had two of the same brand before - one I got off another member, (for I think almost the same price), and one I bought a few months ago (it was about $50). The one from another member was an outstanding hone, but circumstances forced me to sell it. The other, which is also good, had a crack or something on it. So I bought this for three reasons - one, it was late at night and I was sitting at home alone with a bottle of wine, two, I am familiar with the brand and quality of the stone, and three, for me, two of the most interesting aspects of our hobby is honing and the history/historicity of the implements. I was genuinely interested to see what SRD considered a 'Choice Grade' hone, and while I don't have much experience with this one yet, so far I think SRD knew what he was talking about.

Of interest, last night I was pondering this subject, and thinking someone would bring up whether it was worth it. In my case, a good coticule cost me about $1500US - Price Breakdown: lack of experience $$$, not being able to trust sellers $$$, postage costs $$$, mistakes $$$, 9 or 10 other cotis, and then the price of the good one.

And is it worth it? In my case, after about 7 or 8 years of using a razor, I probably enjoy it more now than when I first started.

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Thank you for you point of view. Me, I am just not too sure in a gradation of coticules in general, that's all. I think most coticules that were sold in the past and are sold today for the purpose of razor honing will be quality hones, so the chance of getting a good one, with or without stamp, are relatively high anyway. The stamp and box mean that at some point either manufacturer or retailer considered the coticule good enough to be used on razors. Which is another sign that it probably will work just fine, but in my opinion not really all that relevant.

Even nowadays there is the distinction between the select and standard grades, which by Ardennes own admission is based purely on visuals, not performance. Some people feel there is a quite distinct difference in what you can expect from standard VS select. Personally, I have never noticed such a difference and would recommend standard grade coticules bouts to people looking to buy a new production coticule simply because they are the cheapest option. Generally speaking, standard grade coticules tend to look prettier too, I think :)

From what I understand, kosher coticules may be an exception as these were (are?) graded on speed as well as visual aspects. But I have not delved very deep into that specific aspect.

I still wonder what people mean by bad coticules and how one is to establish that a specific coticule is an inferior specimen. You mention you bought 9-10 other coticules before finding 'the good one'. Would you care to elaborate on why you considered the other ones bad and how you established that? I have one with hard mineral inclusions, so I consider that one bad, at least for razors. Apart from that and two coticules from "La Veine aux Clous" Bart Torfs mentioned that were extremely soft and extremely slow - yet still could be made to work for honing, but apparently prohibitively laboriously - I have trouble imagining a really bad (let alone basically useless) coticule and am genuinely interested in what you consider one, as it is a to me a quite foreign perspective. Which is interesting.

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Originally Posted by Pithor

Thank you for you point of view.

You mention you bought 9-10 other coticules before finding 'the good one'. Would you care to elaborate on why you considered the other ones bad and how you established that?

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I'll put a caveat first: With full hollow/hollow ground razors I think the type of coti is far less important. But with heavier blades, I notice quite a serious difference between stones. Perhaps that's just me, a lack of understanding or skill on my part, the way I use them, the mood I'm in, or some other unknown factor.

I can really only say what other more serious coticule users have said. And just to be clear, I'm not really a serious coticule user, lol. I use nanis and finish on a G20 or Barbers Delight most of the time. But my first hone was a coticule, and since then I've had a fascination with them, most probably because a couple of the best edges I've ever tried were off coticules, and well, I don't know, but there's just something about them that interests me. I arrived at my conclusions by frustrating trial and error, and by honing up old practise razors to see what the results were.

So to answer your question, some coticules are fast - and some are very very fast in removing steel. (Slurry will be dark grey in about 10-20 strokes). The one I have like that is a new one from Ardennes. It makes a good one stone hone, but I find the finish a little prickly so have to finish on another. (Of note, the BBW on the other side is by far the best bbw I've come across - I have more times than not used it as the finisher when using that stone.)
Some are slow to average in every respect. Slow can mean 200-300 circles before slurry changes colour. For these ones I don't find anything at all special about them - I may as well use a random stone found on the street. And the only way to get a decent edge off them is with technique and patience. To get an acceptable finish I need an extra layer of tape, or lather/soap, or oil finish, and even then it's nothing special. I'd rather just finish on a nani 8k and put more effort into stropping.
About a year ago I finally got a good one. Not long after I had to leave the country and the stone, but I did have the chance to use it a couple of times, which is nowhere near the amount of time you need to learn your stone. But that stone provided the type of edge I was looking for.
I'm hoping the current stone will do as well or better.
There's an interesting video on Youtube which I've just tried to find but can't. In it, the person has about 5 or 6 cotis and compares the different sound the razor makes while on them. I think it gives a good indication of the different qualities of some of these stones.
We can see a difference here:
This is a little vintage Rose Rock coti:

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Here's the one I got yesterday.

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We can see (with my phone camera you can't really see anything at all, lol) but there's a big difference in appearance. The former is a little wishy-washy, the latter is like a creme version of a good red wine. Peer into it and it looks like you could see the mysteries of the universe.
I'm not sure if I answered your question, but to sum up - some are good in the earlier stages of honing, others aren't very good at all, some are good as general stones (but inadequate compared to our modern synthetics), some are good in the latter stages of honing, and occasionally you'll find one that equals a good Thuringian - leaving a 'cute' but very precise edge.
:)

That stone will only dish worse resulting in ruined razors. I would recommend that you take some pictures and then donate it to charity.

PM me and I will send you Charity's address...

Pithor, you of course are an expert in cotis. All those posts on coti.be are testament to that. So, most of yours are new, right? I could never understand why people have a variety of new coticules. If you're saying they're all the same, why have so many?

Here's an interesting post by Neil Miller:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I have had somewhere between 30 and 50 cotis, but have only kept one, an extremely hard one. This is the only type that delivers an outstanding edge, as far as I am concerned.

Your opinion may well differ, but most of the mystique concerning cotis is just mumbo-jumbo. They are just a stone, no magic qualities. Smooth is just another word for not fully sharp, in my mind.

Regards,
Neil

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I don't have that much experience with collecting Eschers. But they grade their stones. Surely it stands that as the rock structure varies so too does the finish it leaves.

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Originally Posted by Frankenstein

Pithor, you of course are an expert in cotis. All those posts on coti.be are testament to that. So, most of yours are new, right? I could never understand why people have a variety of new coticules. If you're saying they're all the same, why have so many?

Here's an interesting post by Neil Miller:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I have had somewhere between 30 and 50 cotis, but have only kept one, an extremely hard one. This is the only type that delivers an outstanding edge, as far as I am concerned.

Your opinion may well differ, but most of the mystique concerning cotis is just mumbo-jumbo. They are just a stone, no magic qualities. Smooth is just another word for not fully sharp, in my mind.

Regards,
Neil

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I don't have that much experience with collecting Eschers. But they grade their stones. Surely it stands that as the rock structure varies so too does the finish it leaves.

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I would not consider myself an expert on coticules by any stretch of the word. The late Henk Bos, Bart Torfs and Maurice Celis are the ones that come to mind upon whom I would bestow the title of expert; I am sure there are more, but these are off the top of my head, and I do not consider myself to be in the same league, not even close. I consider myself a relatively experienced user (4+ years of almost exclusive use), of which there are many. Even though I might be vocal about my preferences and experiences, I do not consider myself an authority on the subject of coticules or their use in honing.

Half of the coticules I have had were recently mined. The reasons for this, however, were not performance related. They were available directly from the manufacturer, who is very helpful. The good folks over at Ardennes-coticule have given me advice and I have had the possibilities to discuss choices and preferences. The prices were very reasonable. For instance, I bought my first coticule from them, a La Veinnette combination hone, pretty much sized like the Old Rock hones (2x4x1"), for €46 back in 2011. An Old Rock (or whatever other boxed older coticule with a brand name) would have, in all likelihood, cost me more, without manufacturer's warranty, and performance would probably not have been any "better". I have had and tried a handful of older coticules and performance wise they have all performed in a relatively similar manner to Coticule-Ardennes stones.

As for my current coticule "collection" - due to its size, I hesitate to call it a collection - I have three coticules, two what I would consider 'full-sized' hones and one 2x10 cm (what most would consider a slurry stone). One of the full sized ones and the small one are recently mined, the other full-sized one is older, and quite fetching in its appearance. Which is why I have kept it. Its performance (i.e. end result) is pretty much indistinguishable from the other ones. I have kept the small one because it has a distinct character, a La Petite Blanche with very minor auto-slurrying (and a lovely blue side) which, combined with its small size, makes it a great stone for honing my honing skills.

In my opinion, there are a few good reasons to have an array of coticules, but performance is not really one of them; unless you count a user's preference for a particular stone because of its characteristics. My three hones all work fine and one of them would be all I would ever need. But I like their characteristics, both in use (there is a slight but distinct variance in behaviour) as well as in appearance. The appearance is the main reason I hang onto both full sized hones, though. It is the same reason why I have the number of razors I have: there are slight differences in behaviour but these are nuances; a well-made razor is a well-made razor is a well-made razor. Practically, you only need one. Why have more?

As for the quote from the late Neil Miller, I both disagree and disagree. When he said that

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

...most of the mystique concerning cotis is just mumbo-jumbo. They are just a stone, no magic qualities

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I cannot but agree wholeheartedly. I dare to wager that the majority of the regular coticule users would agree as well; in the end, they are tools, nothing more.

I do think however, that some people (Neil Miller among them) confuse romanticism with mystical worship or something silly like that. For me there is most definitely some romanticism involved: I shave with vintage razors, for equal romantic reasons - as well as practical result, but if I would only be interested in the result I would most likely end up with one vintage SE and a bunch of PTFE coated blades, or at least a whole lot less open razors. I simply love the idea of using a rock, ripped out of the earth's crust, turned into a functional tool by a skilful, passionate manufacturer to sharpen an old functional tool by a skilful, passionate manufacturer. This was, as I understand it, the reason coticule.be came into existence. The treatment on coticule.be of the tool that is the coticule hone, however, has been very pragmatic and not clouded by assumptions, mystification or pseudo-science.

With this part of the quote I disagree strongly, though:

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Originally Posted by Neil Miller

I have had somewhere between 30 and 50 cotis, but have only kept one, an extremely hard one. This is the only type that delivers an outstanding edge, as far as I am concerned.
[...]
Smooth is just another word for not fully sharp, in my mind.

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I have not tried 30-50 coticules, but I have tried my fair share and have not found that hardness has anything to do with finishing properties as far as end result goes; speed can be a variable, but again I have not found this to correlate with hardness in any meaningful way. There is nothing magical about really hard stones, either. Neil did add that this was in his experience, as what I wrote is what it is in my experience. Neither should be taken as fact or the be-all and end-all.

As for the last bit of the quote, I have no idea where he pulled that one from. A razor can be both smooth and sharp, I think most of us here will agree on that. That said, Neil may very well have referred to the use of 'smooth' concerning coticules in particular and understood it as a euphemism; sadly, there is no way to be sure of what he meant.

As I see it, a coticule edge is not the sharpest you can get an edge that will shave and hold said edge. However, for me such an edge hits the perfect balance between cutting ability and skin friendliness. Also, one coticule will do, unless you like to have a bunch of pretty stones.

OK so what's the best way to lap a coticule should I just use my 400 Dimond plate or would that leave to many deep scratches

I've always used a diamond plate followed by another Coti or bbw.
What kind of stone do you have?
Interestingly, EdHewitt just mentioned that if honing wedges on a narrow home a dished effect may be advantageous.

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Originally Posted by Bob92553

OK so what's the best way to lap a coticule should I just use my 400 Dimond plate or would that leave to many deep scratches

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If you got your coticule new from a reputable seller there is no real need for lapping. The surface may be a bit on the rough side, which initially will make it work slightly faster, but slurry will smooth it out quite fast.

Personally I draw a pencil grid on the hone's surface and use wet and dry sandpaper on a glass surface, 360, 400 or 600 grit, depending on of which one I have a large sheet. I would suggest doing it wet, as the slurry generated by doing so will smooth out the surface as you lap.

For illustration: I never bothered to lap the last coticule (either side) I bought from Ardennes-Coticule in early 2013. It works just fine, always has.

Thanks, Dimond plate worked great.