Do you use synthetics but are opposed to pastes?

I understand there are some differences in use between the two. Forward stroke as opposed to a stropping backwards stroke. Different substrates clay, glass, balsa, linen, leather, ect. but essentially isn't a synthetic stone just paste held together within a substrate? Some people will use an expensive 20k synthetic hone but for one reason or another wouldn't use CrOx on glass, balsa, or anything else. Why? What is the difference in your opinion? Isn't it just basically a 20k pastes set in a stone shaped substrate? What would be different than say putting a 20k paste on top of a hard stone? Same strokes, same grit, synthetic, and much cheaper.

Please share your personal thoughts on this. I have been wrong many times before. :tu

Nope not opposed to anything really. I use what I have depending on my mood. Sometimes stones sometimes pastes. I have no problem running a razor on a pasted strop, I get lazy and many times just use a strop to tune up a dulling blade, shaves fine:shrug:

Back in the old days of SRP there were some that tried exactly what you are describing, using pastes on top of very hard very smooth hones

Arkies and the Spyderco wre often the base hones the PHIG also

The results much as you would imagine were YMMV I personally am a slurry junkie myself I love playing in the mud so trying pastes / powders seems like it might work... Something else to try, please post your results if you do


Edit:
IIRC Robert Williams aka PapaBull messed with it a bit so you might try searching some of his old threads

In my opinion, if I need to use pastes during the honing process, there is a problem with my honing. It could be used in place of a very high grit finishing stone, but I have jnats, and escher, and gokumyo 20k, so there's no need to paste after any of those hones. If you want to save money, and only go up to say an 8k, then pastes are a good economical way to refine your edge. I have a pasted strop for refreshing, but I find I would prefer to try that razor on a different finishing hone to see how it likes different ones. So yea I dont use pastes much, if ever.

I don't use pastes anymore because I simply don't need them. What I can achieve from the stones has replaced the need for paste. It also tells me that I'm doing it right when I can get that last level of sharpness without the need to use pastes. Early on I used them to get what I wasn't getting from honing. If you have a limited lineup of stones or a limited amount of time, do whatever works for you. But my edges are a lot nicer now than when I was using paste. But then again, a lot has changed over that time. :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Steel

Some people will use an expensive 20k synthetic hone but for one reason or another wouldn't use CrOx on glass, balsa, or anything else. Why?

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Principle of commitment. When some buy a 200$+ synthetic stone, they need to rationalize its necessity and superiority.

Just to clarify. I use pastes when the razor calls for it, when I feel like it, or another star is aligned. Some times I go straight from stone to strop. @Glen thanks for a helpful post and although I haven't done extensive playing around with pastes on stones (I too am a slurry junky) I have tried it and it was ok but I didn't give it much of a go either. I am sure if someone did they could make it work very effectively. I prefer balsa. But the purpose of this thread wasn't to find out if I should use pastes or not or if I should buy a hone I just wanted to understand how some are opposed to pastes yet use a synthetic hone which in my unlearned opinion is the same as using a paste.

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Originally Posted by prodigy

In my opinion, if I need to use pastes during the honing process, there is a problem with my honing. It could be used in place of a very high grit finishing stone, but I have jnats, and escher, and gokumyo 20k, so there's no need to paste after any of those hones. If you want to save money, and only go up to say an 8k, then pastes are a good economical way to refine your edge. I have a pasted strop for refreshing, but I find I would prefer to try that razor on a different finishing hone to see how it likes different ones. So yea I dont use pastes much, if ever.

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But isn't a gok20k essentially the same as a paste in a substrate in the shape of a stone?

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Originally Posted by Badgister

Principle of commitment. When some buy a 200$+ synthetic stone, they need to rationalize its necessity and superiority.

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Well, being a lover of natural stones I actually get this point and have no problem with it. I often try to come up with a valid reason why a natural is better but come back to "I just love them". Lol

With a gok 20k you can sharpen and smooth as opposed to just smoothing an edge with say cro ox. Frankenstein and Utopian have proved it can be used as a one stone hone.
I believe some people rely on pastes from a bevel set to get their razors shavable, the potential for variable results would be an issue with me.
I have a gok 20k and love it. Is it worth £150 more than cro ox. No.

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Originally Posted by Steel

But isn't a gok20k essentially the same as a paste in a substrate in the shape of a stone?

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In that sense every hone is just particles in a substrate. A hone has many advantages over powders and pastes because it is less messy, less set up, less stuff to keep track of (balsa, strop, powders or sticks of crox).

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Originally Posted by Steel

But isn't a gok20k essentially the same as a paste in a substrate in the shape of a stone?

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I'm not sure I'm willing to follow you there. By that logic all 1k stones are equal, right up through that 20k. Yet you'll find that most will tell you that the Chosera 1k is the king of bevel setters. Anyone is free to disagree with that but you'll find that those who use them most have found that one to be the best. To suggest as another person did that its a justification of the money spent, well, that suggests that you can't tell the difference between the two mediums. And if its all the same, just use the paste and save the time and expense. Nothing screams YMMV like honing.

No pastes , i also love to play in the mud and the hones are superior to pastes .

I sense this may be one of those threads, that every stone and paste known to humanity could be invoked as the magic ticket. I could be wrong though its been civil so far.:popcorn:

I use synthetics sometimes, and other times naturals.. but never pastes. Maybe once I get better at honing I will begin using pastes again. Nothing bad to say about pastes just not my preferred route as of late.

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Originally Posted by Razorfaust

I sense this may be one of those threads, that every stone and paste known to humanity could be invoked as the magic ticket. I could be wrong though its been civil so far.:popcorn:

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I hope it remains civil. I am not in any way putting down one hone or another. Biases are involved im sure along with preference. I have my own biases and preferences and I find nothing wrong with that. If you spend money on a hone that you love well then it's money well spent. Synthetic or natural. I was just wondering people's opinions and thoughts on this whole subject as it has often crossed my mind. For instance, there are some people that use pastes from bevel set to finish with good consistent results. I don't because I enjoy honing on natural stones. I just find it curious when someone uses a synthetic hone but is set against a paste. I am not saying all pastes and synthetics are equal. I just used a very simple question to highlight the meat of my inquiry. Just a discussion is all I'm after. Not which is the best as it is a ymmv thing.

In a similar thread not too long ago the late Neill Miller said this and I highly resemble this remark in all things shaving / honing .

"The above is just my opinion. It may well be worthless and wrong. But it does not matter. We can explain things in any fashion we like, no matter how outlandish, but as long as the product performs to expectations then who cares?"

Regards,
Neil

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Originally Posted by prodigy

In that sense every hone is just particles in a substrate. A hone has many advantages over powders and pastes because it is less messy, less set up, less stuff to keep track of (balsa, strop, powders or sticks of crox).

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That's makes sense. Thank you.

I remember an old adage I read here on SRP and I still believe it to be true :)

"I have yet to see an edge off of any Stone or Hone that could not be improved upon by the judicious use of paste, and proper stropping after honing"


Watch that key word there I highlighted, it is rather important :p


I do not see a correlation between pastes and hones however, two different animals for a few different reasons..

Keep in mind I am speaking of the .50~ pastes and higher girt, as they are most often used in SR usage

We seem to discount the Binder / Matrix of the hones we use, whether they are Natural or Synthetic, simple use of the different 1k hones out there makes it quite apparent that the type / amount of cutting grit and the Binder makes quite a noticeable difference in the performance

Comparison of the various other "matching" Numbers show the same

Even with pastes the same can be found,, compare the various Diamonds and CrOx in .50~ then compare them on different surfaces, to find quite different performance, then add in the CBN's CeOx and others to find even more differences in performance all with the same "Grit" numbers..

The most significant difference IMHO, is the ability of the Hone to actually change and form the geometry of the edge, and the pastes ig: to simply improve the existing bevel...


anyway try it all see what your face loves best :p

I'm not opposed to trying or using anything as long as it shaves well. My current finishing process is 12k naniwa, then 8-12 laps on a crox pasted webbing. I have a phig in the mail so who knows maybe that will change. The biggest improvement to my edges has been through refining my honing and stropping technique. There's no pasted strop or natural or synthetic hone that is worth a crap if the guy using them isn't up to the task.

I also don't like to limit myself because I think I know something.

not apposed to any of the options open to us in our fine sport as the variance of options is part of the fun
but personally it is about the dollars v's numbers to achieve the same polishing of the edge & feel on my face

I go to 16k on hones
then a pasted balsa paddle

Chrox 0.3 microns = about 50k - up front cost <$10
Ferrox 0.1 microns = about 150k- up front cost <$10

Gok is only 20K - up front cost >$250

Note I have not shaved of a Gok 20K so can not compare it to justify it.

I also understand the reasoning behind not using pastes and only stones

the key thing to remember is both remove metal

but the stones will (or should) always leave a flat crisp end due to the forward stroke on a hard substrate
where as a paste can convex the edge due to the backwards stropping stokes, and this is magnified extremely when using a pasted strop due to the flexible substrate

as always YMMV

I doubt the direction of the stroke has anything to do with it. Just that the strop gives and the stone doesn't (unless you push really hard).

Stropping, be it on a pasted strop or plain leather will always create a micro-convexing of the bevel of some sorts. This micro-convexing is what adds to the keenness of the edge.

In my view, it is that micro-bevel that matters more than how shiney the bevel faces are made by the hyped synthetic "hone du jour".

Having said this, I wonder whether one can truly notice a difference between a razor that is finished up to around an 8k-10k level followed by a pasted strop vs a razor that has been honed on a 7 hone progression to 30k, 50k or whatever the new Olympic record is.

I won't always use a pasted strop, but I find some razors truly benefit from additional micro-convexing, namely heavy grinds.

For centuries, razors have been finished with whatever regional finishing stone is available and pasted strops.

Less is more, ymmv and all that jazz.

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Originally Posted by Badgister

Less is more, ymmv and all that jazz.

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Personally, I think all of that politically correct nonsense is getting us absolutely nowhere.

You told the truth, plain and simple. No YMMV. It is like it is.

And you are absolutely right. Thanks for speaking up. It's greatly appreciated. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Badgister

Stropping, be it on a pasted strop or plain leather will always create a micro-convexing of the bevel of some sorts. This micro-convexing is what adds to the keenness of the edge.

In my view, it is that micro-bevel that matters more than how shiney the bevel faces are made by the hyped synthetic "hone du jour".

Having said this, I wonder whether one can truly notice a difference between a razor that is finished up to around an 8k-10k level followed by a pasted strop vs a razor that has been honed on a 7 hone progression to 30k, 50k or whatever the new Olympic record is.

I won't always use a pasted strop, but I find some razors truly benefit from additional micro-convexing, namely heavy grinds.

For centuries, razors have been finished with whatever regional finishing stone is available and pasted strops.

Less is more, ymmv and all that jazz.

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Since you linked to a blog called "science of sharp", do you know who the author is? I couldn't seem to find a name associated to the author.

Todd Simpson, as stated in a previous thread

Thank you Badgister,,, as in the previous thread you linked http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ne-seen-2.html ,, I will stick to my response in post # 13 in that thread:

"Thank you for the response to my question.
I just have a bug up my a$$ with anyone who posts information/research on a topic & does not put his identity to his work. Whenever I attend a class of instruction on any subject, I want to know who is teaching me & his/her background in the subject.
Whenever I teach one of the few subjects that I have knowledge on, my audience will know all about me before the first instruction." Hirlau- John Corley South Florida

I used pastes a little when I joined this site and discovered all the options available. I remember they definitely improved the edges I had and I never questioned their appropriateness in the sharpening progression. But I like simplicity and decided for me they were too messy, lol, so decided to stick to just using hones and unpasted strops.
I found synthetic stones gave me much sharper edges than naturals, and for a long time enjoyed using them, but I noticed although the shaves were often closer they left parts of my face a little red even though I used the lightest pressure when shaving.
I changed to finishing on a few naturals and noticed the redness disappeared.
At the moment I use the coticule because it gives a sharp yet durable edge which doesn't cause any irritation (which I think is preferable for me who uses the same razor most days) , plus I like the simplicity of using one stone well.

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Originally Posted by Hirlau

Thank you Badgister,,, as in the previous thread you linked http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...ne-seen-2.html ,, I will stick to my response in post # 13 in that thread:

"Thank you for the response to my question.
I just have a bug up my a$$ with anyone who posts information/research on a topic & does not put his identity to his work. Whenever I attend a class of instruction on any subject, I want to know who is teaching me & his/her background in the subject.
Whenever I teach one of the few subjects that I have knowledge on, my audience will know all about me before the first instruction." Hirlau- John Corley South Florida

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I may be wrong, but I get the impression it is more of a hobbyist blog and not something for peer review.

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Originally Posted by Badgister

I may be wrong, but I get the impression it is more of a hobbyist blog and not something for peer review.

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That could very well be.
I just don't understand the mindset that constructs a blog( not necessarily this one in question, as I have seen many anonymous blogs on many different topics) and does not identify him or herself. I think that is the reason God created dairies, isn't it,,:shrug:

In an attempt to bring this back on topic thank you to everyone for your opinions on why a person may use a synthetic but be opposed to pastes. There were some great points in my opinion about the mess and number of objects to keep track of even if they are small points. To reiterate I can understand that someone may prefer a stone to a paste for personal reasons and not because one is better than the other and the idea that the substrates are different is definately something to keep in mind. All are attempts to explain certain biases that you experience within the honing community and although none of them by themselves are convincing maybe as a whole it makes a bit more sense to me. Although as was posted above I too wonder if someone who finished on a 20k synthetic and stropped could tell the difference of the edge as opposed to someone who finished on a paste and strops instead. So in the end the one that makes the most sense to me is a combination of all the above.

The idea that it is somehow "cheating" by finishing on a pasted "whatever" instead of a synthetic hone is still foriegn and seems a bit of a "double standard" to me but when someone says hey I just prefer the edge off this or that stone or I have no other reason than preference. Interestingly, I can understand that rationale better.

Like you Steel I never understood the logic behind the use of pastes being "cheating". Another means to an end.

There is no cheating there is only success or failure. Use any system or combo of systems out there to get what your looking for. If you enjoy the shave you succeeded. I don't see why folks are bothered by this whole thing really. Find and edge you can produce reliably for yourself and enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Badgister

Having said this, I wonder whether one can truly notice a difference between a razor that is finished up to around an 8k-10k level followed by a pasted strop vs a razor that has been honed on a 7 hone progression to 30k, 50k or whatever the new Olympic record is.

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I can tell the difference.
You should try for yourself & form your own conclusion but of course you'll have to buy that expensive 50k to do the testing.

I use both, but a pasted strop is much quicker for a touch up than bringing out the hones! I also use paste as a finisher after my 12k naniwa, it seems to result in a keener edge.

Pastes and sprays are fine if the types of edges those give like your skin. The only really compelling one to me is cerium oxide, but that isn't a touch up medium as much as it's a way to tweak edges to a smooth bias

So, pastes and slurry are different animals, some natural slurry’s are frangible and will continue to break down to sub-micron levels. If slurry is not frangible it is a wash and will polish the bevel but dull the edge, or in low grits amplifies the aggression at the cost of the edge, which in low grits does not matter that much.

Natural, frangible slurry’s like Japanese hones and Naugras, off set that edge forward damage by breaking down to nano grit levels. It would be interesting to see just how small they can actually break down.

One of the benefits of a pasted strop is the convex bevel it produces, a stronger edge, not just polishing for keenness or comfort. Using paste on a hone with an edge trailing stroke will not impact the edge, but also will not convex the bevel. So there is no benefit other than to polish the bevel and that can be accomplished many way and arguably better with a pasted strop or nano grit film.

Granted, these differences at nano grits are so minor as to almost be inconsequential and truly a matter of personal preference.

A lot depends on the condition of the bevel at the time of paste introduction, (hard to paste out a chip). The largest benefit of paste is the ability to tailor an edge, either for keenness or comfort. There are only a few stones that can polish for comfort.

I use paste often to maintain and refresh an edge, can’t beat diamonds and CBN to add keenness quickly, (CBN will calm a diamond edge as even CBN (.10) can add too much keenness. Ironically plain leather is the moderator, I use to tailor the edge.
I have been using a SG20K for almost a year now, and it is a good stone, but not the Jnat killer, ultimate stone it was touted to be. I find myself going to paste or film more often, in place of the 20k.

I use synthetics to hone and finish on naturals, film or paste.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

I have been using a SG20K for almost a year now, and it is a good stone, but not the Jnat killer, ultimate stone it was touted to be. I find myself going to paste or film more often, in place of the 20k.

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Comparing the edge produced by a Jnat finisher or the 20k is a pretty subjective thing. It will however kill any Jnat for speed in finishing . With that said, either can "touch up" a razor with a handful of strokes but that's not finishing :)

I find them all synthetic, natural or paste/spray all to be a finishing point. The only reason I stopped using pastes at the end oh honing was to find what the razor felt like finished off the stones and not pastes. Still use pastes periodically for touching up between honing

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Originally Posted by Ernie1980

I use both, but a pasted strop is much quicker for a touch up than bringing out the hones! I also use paste as a finisher after my 12k naniwa, it seems to result in a keener edge.

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Well no need for my reply...
Took the words right outta my mouth Ernie1980
I will say this...
Magnification is very important to me. I check eaven after stropping.
More than once I've found micro chips or other unpleasantries.