Jnat Changing with Lapping?

I have been getting to know my relatively new Nakayama Maruichi Lv 4, and have honed ~8-10 razors on it so far.
Initially, I noticed that no matter how much I finessed the nearly finished blade on light slurry or even plain water, the edge would not achieve the level of keenness that I like. I would have to take it as far as I could on the Nakayama, and finish on my Imperia La Roccia to get it where I liked it.

Now having lapped the stone a few times, the last couple blades that I have honed have reached my goal level of keenness without needing another stone. I doubt my technique has improved that significantly in such a short time (but who knows). I am guessing that I may have lapped into a finer/harder/better layer of the stone, as I have also noticed some changes in the color pattern (more pink and some dark spots). Is this change in stone quality and resulting edges common with Jnats? I am just curious, as this is my first Jnat, and I want to learn, learn, learn. Thanks in advance!

Stone when new:
Attachment 219479

Stone now after being lapped ~4 times (note the slight change in the pattern...and lack of stamps):
Attachment 219480

I doubt your theory! I have a few JNats and they are pretty consistent front-to-back. I have maybe one stone that's different, but it is also visible.

When you are learning, you can gain skill rapidly, so don't shortchange youself!

Cheers, Steve

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Originally Posted by Steve56

I doubt your theory! I have a few JNats and they are pretty consistent front-to-back. I have maybe one stone that's different, but it is also visible.

When you are learning, you can gain skill rapidly, so don't shortchange youself!

Cheers, Steve

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Hmmm, I guess anything's possible. :hmmm: I started using more small circles at the end polishing stages, as I feel like I can keep the pressure (or lack thereof) more consistent.

I'm actually glad to hear that it may be more technique, as I would hate to worry about lapping through the good layer and start getting lower quality edges in the future. Thank you for the help sir! :tu

You've honed 8-10 razors and lapped it 4 times.

Why did you do that?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

You've honed 8-10 razors and lapped it 4 times.

Why did you do that?

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I'm a compulsive lapper too. Flat fetish ......... :shrug: ...... only speaking for myself of course ...... :)

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Originally Posted by Utopian

You've honed 8-10 razors and lapped it 4 times.

Why did you do that?

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I used the stone to take the edges from bevel set to final polish starting with my botan, and working my way down. I did a lot of playing around with the edges, going up and down the naguras trying to learn. After these sessions, I would lap it with my atoma just to make sure it was flat before I started another razor. I would consistently see the pencil marks toward the ends of the hone disappear before the marks on in the central portion, indicating that it was no longer flat. I may lap it before each blade from now on, come to think of it. :hmmm:

I have a problem with this myself. I have no faith in the flat so I flat some more. Same thing that Doc Martin said previously happens to me as well. I grid lap, I hone 1 measly razor and by the next session I grid lap again and take note that it wasn't that flat to begin with according to grid removal. So of course I cant believe my eyes do it again until one quick swipe with a dmt and all the pencil is gone. You would think the damn thing was flat for the next session..... nope and a vicious circle of stone down the drain is born. Jesus help me.

OK, well then I guess you will get to meet all of the layers of your hone! Odds are that you will encounter different characteristics in the hone as you work your way through it.

I have done the full run from Botan on up many times on several hones but have never felt the need to re-lap after the initial lapping of each hone. Mine just don't get that dished; or at least not dished enough for me to notice any honing issue.

I am extremely diligent about keeping my synthetics flat, but I just don't do the same for my naturals.

When you lapp your stone you make it more agresive and not so fine and on the hard stones ,that matters on the final stage . I see a awasedo film that the miner lapp the stones in a Diamond disk and after , he makes slurry with a big tomo to smoothen the surface .
I notice also that my Jnats sre not so effective right after lapping , but after an few sluryes and dilutions it gives significantly better and sharper edje
This factor combined , with the knowing of the stone , can make the diference , actualy.
If you are compulsife lapper get a flat floor tale or C12 k and lapp your stones with them . Another effective thing is to rubb 2 stones one , against another

This particular stone does not seem very hard. It is easy to lap, and slurry is easily generated with my extra fine DMT card. Maksim rated it at lv 4. It is nowhere near as hard as my Imperia La Roccia to lap. I always use my Atoma 400 then 1200, then make a few slurries before honing to reduce lap scratches. Even with all of this considered, I think I could lap it flat weekly and it would still last a decade. Plus, once I'm halfway through this one, I can justify to the wife that I "need" another Jnat. ;)

This is just a thought but I have to agree with Utopian your razor should not be taking off that much of your stone. To the point that it needs to be lapped over & over during the honing process. :rofl2: Also the stone should not be taking a lot of the razor either. How do you know the object that laps your stone is truly flat? And if it doesn't have to be to flatten the stone why does the stone have to be truly flat to hone the razor? Just a thought :shrug:

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Originally Posted by AlienEdge

This is just a thought but I have to agree with Utopian your razor should not be taking off that much of your stone. To the point that it needs to be lapped over & over during the honing process. :rofl2: Also the stone should not be taking a lot of the razor either. How do you know the object that laps your stone is truly flat? And if it doesn't have to be to flatten the stone why does the stone have to be truly flat to hone the razor? Just a thought :shrug:

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Not sure I understand, but I have lapped the stone after every 2-3 razors on average so far. I didn't think that was particularly excessive. Is there a generally accepted lapping frequency that others adhere to for a Nakayama Maruichi Lv 4? :shrug:

I just figured that, since I have been setting the bevel with this stone instead of using my Chosera (just for fun), then taking it through all subsequent stages, the stone may be more affected than if I was just using it as a finisher (I lap my Imperia La Roccia very rarely).

The question regarding flatness of diamond plates and resulting flatness (or necessity of flatness of honing surface) is probably an issue debated by honers ad nauseam. As long as I keep getting these awesome edges, I don't really care. ;)

It is common with any natural stone, they can change in performance and look as they wear and many can be completely different from one side to the other, they are natural and there was no “quality control” when they were made.

You have bought a beautiful stone from a trusted and well respected provider. If you are getting a better finish from an inexpensive, mid grit slate it is most probably your technique and not the stone. It is not uncommon for new honers to use way too much pressure and do too many laps learning to hone, you are just using a very nice, expressive stone to learn that.

Not all razors need to be completely bevel set every time. You may want to get a harder stone for bevel setting with botan and use this one as a finisher, learn to hone on synthetics and once mastered switch to naturals or finish on naturals.

Look at your honing stroke, to better use the stone face more effectively. Either hone on the high spots or just accept that you will burn though the stone way more quickly lapping it excessively. Really, dead flat is not “that” critical, certainly not at the amount of variance you are talking about.

I appreciate your insight Euclid. I used synthetics for quite a while prior to purchasing my first Jnat, and would get very consistent results with them using simple x-strokes. I am now just climbing up the steep learning curve of Jnat (or natural stone in general) honing. It has been a blast so far, and I have learned a lot. I have determined that I have better control of the slurry when I use a combination of x-strokes and small circles (more circles than x-strokes toward the end).

I am ecstatic with the edges I am currently achieving compared when I started with it (now just as keen, but much smoother than my synthetic edges). I am just attempting to elucidate which variable is primarily responsible for this improvement (the scientist in me). If it is my technique, then woohoo! :rock: If it is that a new (slightly better) portion of the stone has been revealed as a result of lapping, that's ok too.

I just wanted to hear from honers more experienced with Jnats than me if changes in the stone is a potential contributor. Thank you all for your feedback. :tu

It’s all about the pressure, almost always pressure.

Circles are for removing metal, polishing is done with smooth straight or x finishing strokes.

Circles wear the same parts of the stone, cause angled stria and micro chipping at the edge. Straight strokes remove the angled stria.

Do your circles on the ends of the stone, to even out your wear pattern.

That and Slurry is a double edged sword.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

It’s all about the pressure, almost always pressure.

Circles are for removing metal, polishing is done with smooth straight or x finishing strokes.

Circles wear the same parts of the stone, cause angled stria and micro chipping at the edge. Straight strokes remove the angled stria.

Do your circles on the ends of the stone, to even out your wear pattern.

That and Slurry is a double edged sword.

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Sounds good. Thanks for the info!

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

.....

You have bought a beautiful stone from a trusted and well respected provider.
.....

Not all razors need to be completely bevel set every time.
....
Really, dead flat is not “that” critical, certainly not at the amount of variance you are talking about.

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The dead flat bit is important because you want the exact same shape on each hone surface
as you switch stones. The shape need not be flat but it does need to match and flat is
the easy to match profile.

I confess to never lapping my first coticule hone for 20 years.
I just lightly honed my razor any time it began to tug. Over time
the hone and razors developed a matched profile and I was
a happy shaver.

The day I lapped it flat opened many weeks of terrible shaving as the
razors reset themselves and I found a Norton combo hone and DMT
and film on flat glass.

Natural hones work in a variety of ways and many need to be
burnished with a block of steel after lapping (Arkansas stones)
if they are to be great for a razor.

What works for you is important.

The “You want the exact same shape on each hone surface as you switch stones” theory only works if you hone on the exact same spots on the stone each time, which no one can do except a machine.

The edge and spine will ride on the high spots, it may not be as efficient, but a few laps will not grind the edge and spine to the shape of the stone face either, especially on the polishing stones.

It stand to reason a flatter stone will produce a finer edge than an un-lapped stone but once you use it, it is no longer “Dead Flat” on the second stroke, as they do not abrade at the same rate across the stone face.

You have to admit, using a stone for 20 years that has never been lapped is the extreme and nothing like what the OP is experiencing. He is on the other end of the spectrum, obsessively lapping based on this kind of advice.

Flat and smooth works just fine, some would say he is wasting a good stone lapping it down the drain, but as you say it is what works for him, after all it is his stone to do with as he pleases.

As someone once wrote here, “I wonder if a hundred years ago, guys really worried about, just how flat their stones are.”

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

He is on the other end of the spectrum, obsessively lapping based on this kind of advice.

Flat and smooth works just fine, some would say he is wasting a good stone lapping it down the drain, but as you say it is what works for him, after all it is his stone to do with as he pleases.

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Does anyone have recommendations regarding the optimal lapping frequency for my Jnat? I wasn't aware that lapping the stone after honing 2-3 razors starting at the bevel set for each was deemed particularly excessive or wasteful. I read on this forum a while back that Lynn himself laps after each honing session. :shrug:

On another note: I used the stone to "refinish" a couple of blades (one Greaves and one Wester Bros) that I honed a long time ago on lapping film. The edges were very sharp, but just a bit crispy.

I made DMT slurry, and broke that down and continued polishing per Jim Rion's method. I then progressively diluted the slurry with short intervals of super low pressure strokes followed by stropping and checking the edge until the keenness was determined on par with a "benchmark" edge from another razor. I shaved with the Greaves last night and the edge was about as amazing as the edges that I honed completely on the same stone. :y

Does this mean that I will return to synthetics for everything but final polishing, then bust out the Nakayama? Nah...I love the process of using my nagura and this stone. I am beginning to understand why people hold Jnats in such high regard. :tu

Do what makes you happy, really there are no rules.

I suspect what you are doing is more refreshing or slurrying than a full gridded lapping. So the “wear” will be minimal. Many feel that there is a difference in slurrying with a stone vs a diamond plate and a lot depends on the stone and the plate or stone.

Many do bevel set on synthetics and finish on JNATS, some don’t.

It sounds to me like you are finding your way with the stones and that is perfectly fine, just don’t get caught up in the “there is only one way to hone” "my way theory”. Do what works, makes the best edge for you. Whatever you do, it will probably be radically different a year from now… and your edges and shaves will be better.

It all comes down to rubbing steel on rocks, natural or man-made.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Do what makes you happy, really there are no rules.

I suspect what you are doing is more refreshing or slurrying than a full gridded lapping. So the “wear” will be minimal. Many feel that there is a difference in slurrying with a stone vs a diamond plate and a lot depends on the stone and the plate or stone.

Many do bevel set on synthetics and finish on JNATS, some don’t.

It sounds to me like you are finding your way with the stones and that is perfectly fine, just don’t get caught up in the “there is only one way to hone” "my way theory”. Do what works, makes the best edge for you. Whatever you do, it will probably be radically different a year from now… and your edges and shaves will be better.

It all comes down to rubbing steel on rocks, natural or man-made.

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Amen brother!! It's been a blast so far, and I'm looking forward to further learning and improvement. :beer1:

It's really hard to give guidelines that are "set in stone, " no pun intended - because we are all individuals and may not move and work exactly the same - thusly, the things we may think we are doing exactly the same can give slightly different end results.

That said, I have done a lot of experimentation with slurry honing, and for me the best edges come with a slightly "worn-in" stone. The edges from a stone freshly lapped with a diamond plate are very keen - just about as keen as the "worn-in" stone - but not as comfortable to shave with. My personal preference is to lap with a 1200 Atoma whenever the stone needs it, then raising and rinsing away a few tomo slurries before calling the surface ready. If I need a little more cutting power I use a 1200 Atoma generated slurry to hone with first, then go through one or two tomo slurries. Works great for me. If you think about it, the way the Japanese traditionally honed, with repeated nagura slurries, would accomplish basically the same thing - wearing in and smoothing of the honing surface.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

I have done a lot of experimentation with slurry honing, and for me the best edges come with a slightly "worn-in" stone. The edges from a stone freshly lapped with a diamond plate are very keen - just about as keen as the "worn-in" stone - but not as comfortable to shave with. My personal preference is to lap with a 1200 Atoma whenever the stone needs it, then raising and rinsing away a few tomo slurries before calling the surface ready. If I need a little more cutting power I use a 1200 Atoma generated slurry to hone with first, then go through one or two tomo slurries. Works great for me. If you think about it, the way the Japanese traditionally honed, with repeated nagura slurries, would accomplish basically the same thing - wearing in and smoothing of the honing surface.

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Very sound advice! Makes perfect sense. I'm going to start making a few slurries with my big ol' Nakayama tomo nagura prior to honing when it's fresh off the atoma 1200. Thank you sir!