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I have 4 coticules and I am wondering how do you tell which progression of grit a coticule or any natural hone is when you use it? Some are coarse and some are finishers or in between. What is a good way or test to tell when a certain hone could or should be used in honing progression? I guess in theory any coticule could be used at any point after bevel setting. This question may have been brought up in the past.
Its not only a factor of the stones themselves its also a factor how much slurry is used (thick slurry - many loose garnets - coarser work) or if you use plain water. When plain water is used the garnets sit in the matrixof the stone and only a part looks out of the stone, thats the reason why you can do the finish with water....
In the end on every individual stone you really have to try out and test. There is no rule which can be transferred to the stones you use.
Try those cotis with a thicker slurry after a 1k up to finish, did they work well, then you have four cotis which are capable to use them after bevel set...
Willis,
May seem trivial but I'd start at the top and test all of them for their finishing capabilities. This in theory would give you your finest specimens. You could work your way down from there.
I do use a fair bit of slurry when I go to them right after the 1k and dilute as needed. I like the idea of starting at the top and working down. 2 of them are pretty aggressive with light slurry. I guess I'll get some of junk razors and do some experiments. Right now my progression is 1k Naniwa, La Loraine, Coti, then Thuri.
I guess each coti also have their own characteristics too. Some more aggressive than others, etc. In theory all cotis can be used as a finisher too. Looks like I have a fair bit of paying more attention to my cotis when I use them. Wonder what would be a good way to test them using a "control" to gauge what each hone is doing?Quote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
Well, plenty of things have already been said.
What I have recently been doing with faster/coarser Coticules on water is take some shaving soap and build up lather on the coti, seems to give a nicer finish, but YMMV
When I use my Coticules with plain water, when I wipe the razor's spine and edge off on a piece of toilet paper, I look at the black marks it leaves, i.e. how much metal is being removed. It differs from Coticule to Coticule.
Some remove quite a lot of metal on water, some remove very very little (kinda like my Thuringians); I'm not coming to a definitive conclusion here, but I think the slower ones on water, leaving the least markings, MIGHT be better capable of a finer finish. But this is just speculation on my part.
That makes sense to me. I'll have to try some of your suggestions too.Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanLudlow
I am pretty much done with acquiring coticules. I have 5 of them and know 3 of the 5 pretty well. I would build up a mild slurry and take a razor that needed honing and do back and forth strokes to see how quick the slurry turned grey.
Some are downright quick, and others slower, or in between. I've had 'em that were fast with slurry but too coarse to finish and others slow but good to finish. Some kind of in the middle. Neither here, nor there. I've set a bevel with a coticule, but I don't do that anymore.
I do the thing with synthetics up to 8k and finish on a coticule that I know will improve the edge from 8k. I'm not a 'dedicated' coticule guy as some are. Just fool with them when I'm in the mood for that edge.
There are way more ways to hone with them than I know about, but that observing how fast the slurry turns grey will tell you something about the speed, and if the coticule will improve an 8k edge I'd say it is worthy of being considered a finisher.
Not sure speed has anything to do with coarseness, my slowest doesn't finish well. My fast one does.
I guess I will pick one of my cotis and just use it exclusively and then use the others as I learn which one does what I need. They are all different widths and lengths too.
I have gone through over a dozen of coticules, I have yet to find one that I would consider as a good finisher in the range of a quality thuringian. Best way I have found to date to see where a coticule sits in regards to grit is to finish on synthetics to 8K, then switch to the coti. The coti will either improve the edge or degrade the edge, either way it will change it. You can decide from there if it's a keeper or not. If you pass one on, just be honest.
From 1k.... I go to a La Loraine then a Coti and thuri as a finisher.
Maybe I need to get myself a synthetic to fill in the gap?
So can you explain whats your issue ? Do you have the feeling that you dont come around well with that Set Up ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Willisf
I would say using a thick slurry either on La Lorraine or any of the four Coticules should do it up to finish....
I guess the thing that throws me for a loop is not knowing "grits" of the hones I am using. Synthetics are easy to figure out....They are marked.....1k-4k-8k and up......Quote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
I am guessing the La Loraine would be the next step to use after a 1k? Then onto the coticule? Or ship the La Loraine and go directly to the coti after the 1k?
That is what making me go mental over all this......lol
So what ballpark figure grit is a LaLoraine anyways?
Both (Coticule / La Lorraine) can be used in generally after the 1k stone, but as always we talk naturals so we cant be for sure on 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Willisf
I would try out all of those and see if you can reduce or eliminate the scratch patterns of the 1k stone...the Lorraine gives a very nice polishing..so you shouldnt check that you cant see any visible scratch patterns left of the 1k.
What type of Lorraine is it ? Is it labelled ?
Attachment 222068
This what I have.
Ok just wanted to be sure its one of the labelled stones...Quote:
Originally Posted by Willisf
I really like this stone...... I am using it after the 1k. So my progression seems ok then?
It's bed time for me.... I'll check back tomorrow......
What would be a grit estimate on the La Lorraine? I have interest in one.
The progression is perfect in my opinion Will. I do the same with the difference that I use a natural bevel setter instead of the 1 K most of the time (I am dedicated to naturals!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Willisf
The La Lorraine bridges the gap between bevel setting and finishing perfectly, better than a lot of coticules due to my experience. The Lorraine is fast on slurry and could be as fine as a good quality coticule.
Actually I have two razors in my rotation that I finished with a LaLorraine. For my feeling the edge is sharp enough and smooth. Of course not comparable with an endfinishing on a thuringian so far.
As we all know that grit estimations are not possible or reasonable on naturals, I tend to rate my naturals in certain grit ranges. In a natural you always have smaller and larger abrasive particles with different shapes and in different number in/ on the working surface that you are using. It is somehow like slurring material from different grade artificial hones together (i.e. a 2k, 4k and 8k) on a plate of wood or glas and then honing on this mixture.
The different cutting power of the particles cause less or more abrasion, larger particles cause deeper scratches, the fine particles even begin to poilsh the steel.
At the moment I use a quite interesting natural bevel setter that was used for knifes and scythes in the past. The deepest scratches are deeper than from a 800 artificial stone, but the edge gets nearly mirror polished at the same time.
So grit range for a Lorraine in my opinion is very wide, maybe somewhere between 2 and 8 k, but shave is much better than coming from an 8k. I have speculated in another thread here about the Lorraine, that in difference to coticules, the quartz particles in Lorraine stones take a larger part in the abrasive process. The Lorraine has much less garnets than any coticules, but much more quartz.
That might explain their somewhat different honing performance to coticules on one side and BBW on the other side.
A lot fo great info has been given.
I also use and prefer naturals for everything, I don't use anything synthetic.
I use a Coti from bevel setting through dilutions and end on plain water.
I sometimes throw in the BBW after I set my bevels on the Coti, or if the razor is not that far off, I can use the BBW to set a bevel also.
What I'm hearing you're problem is, is the problem with naturals. It's hard to estimate grits and hard to get 'progression' grits rating.
Hence why when I use naturals, I seem less to think in terms of grit, but more in terms of feedback from the razor and stone.
And it will take some time to get to know you stones. I'll be honest and say that I have no idea what kind of grit my coti on heavy slurry is, or on plain water; all I know is that I can set bevels on it and that it leaves a very smooth edge on plain water, albeit I prefer the Thuringian finish, so after the Coti with water I use a Thuringian.
I had enormous trouble earlier on, cause I was thinking, what if I didn't dilute enough, what if my edges are not ready to be finished, etc. etc.
Which are very valid questions, the only thing I was able to check was if the razor shaved arm-hair in every way possible so I knew my bevel was set, that was the only thing I knew for sure.
That's why after the bevel setting on the Coti I use(d) a BBW, and do some dilutions on that hone, because it's less aggressive and leaves a good keen edge. After that I go to the Coti with plain water and try some HHT tests off the hone. Plenty of discussion about the HHT, it's open to interpretation, but if you can manage to use it successfully, it's a valuable tool. I use mine coming off the hone to see if it passes, I get very good HHT from the BBW, Coti and Thuri. But not all of those mean that the shaves would be good. So, yeah, I had to figure it out the hard way.
It's a progressive method I use, but I like it because it gives me a little more certainty. It's all trial and error. Test are handy, but you need to know how to use them and how to interpret them.
In the end the shave test is all that counts, I've been honing for years and just a couple months ago found great success.
Also, when i first started honing I had a small natural BBW/Coti hone, that BBW side left the most amazing edge ever, unfortunately, I haven't been able to replicate results since that hone was lost with moving. :(
No-one has mentioned it directly yet - but if you want to compare hones, look at the scratch marks as well. I know it's not just as simple as that, but the general rule must follow that a shinier bevel means a finer grit.
Wow!
Thank you all for the great feedback and info! Yall are truly an amazing group! Answered a lot of the unknowns and doubts I was having about my progression and the mechanics behind it. Now the best thing for me to do is to learn what each of coticules have to offer. Do some playful experimentations. Again thank you all!!! I "get it" one....hopefully sooner than later.
:chapeau
All Coticules and BBW can run the range as can the La Loraine, as said, some are fine finishers. What you have to do, is grit range your progression. And perhaps cut down the progression by eliminating any sideways move.
I would suspect the Thüringen is the finest stone and finisher, but until you check you really will not know.
Take the stone you feel is the lowest grit and hone a razor with a straight stria pattern, then mark the halfway point between the heel and toe on both side of the blade with a thick sharpie line. Now hone what you believe is the next highest grit stone keeping the sharpie line on the edge of the stone.
The heel half will be the lowest grit, the toe half the next highest grit. Now compare with magnification, if your guess is correct, hone on the next highest stone, honing on the heel side of the line over the coarsest grit stria and compare the new stone.
Keep doing this with all your stones until you know exactly where each lay in the progression.
If you had some synthetic stones you could do the same and possibly get an approximation grit range on your naturals, of course, this would not include the potential of the slurry, just the base stone and it would be an approximation as just one larger grit will determine the grit size. Naturals are rarely that uniform and can change from side to side.
It would be some work, I would mark the stones in pencil to keep the order straight, but if your goal is a full natural stone progression, you would learn a lot about your stones and perhaps eliminate some from the progression. At the very least you will know where each should or could go in the lineup, you probably only need, a 3 stone progression.
If you do this please do post your results, I would be interested in them.
Just to throw my 2 bits in, and at the risk of saying the same thing others have said, in different words ...... Back when I first came around here Ardennes had not yet began harvesting/selling their coticules. Vintage coticules were sometimes available from ebay, antique stores, old barbers. So they were scarce. The Norton was dominant and the Shaptons were just starting to be messed with. The only J-nat anyone talked about was the Nakayma. There were the Thuringans, the Scots hones, and everyone was talking about what the grit equivalent on the naturals was.
Now there are a whole lot more examples to choose from, and the same method of comparing naturals to synthetics to have a benchmark. Someone can say their coticule, or whatever, improves the edge past an 8k. So there is a benchmark we all understand. Maybe someone will say their coticule is as good as a naniwa 12k, or their thuringan is equal to 12k or better.
I think it is just a way to have a frame of reference that is recognizable by people that hone and have experience with the synthetics and the naturals. IOW, if I were to say I have a coticule that is like a 12k, I don't mean that it is 12k grit. I would be saying I've gotten similar edges with that stone as what I've gotten with a synthetic 12k. Not that the particular natural was that grit.
Say all that to say ......... like everyone else says ...... you have to try them and see what your results are.
In my experience, abrasive speed of coticules does not have a causal effect on the quality of the resulting edge. The slower ones may leave a finer polish on the bevel faces, but as far as I can tell this has no noticeable impact on shaving ability or feel.Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanLudlow
And just a reminder: Most coticules on clear water hardly abrade at all. So if you want to test the finishing qualities of a coticule, at the very least start with a bit of slurry (or try a unicot). Water alone will likely not give you a clear indication of the finishing properties (although you might find that yours is among the coticule minority that have a noticeable effect when used with only water).
Thanks to everyone who replied on this. Yall ROCK !
When I get a free moment to get the hones out I'll be following the advice and suggestions given on here and hopefully have something worthy to report....lol
I'll keep notes so I don't forget what I did.
Again THANKS !!!!
:chapeau
