The title says it all.
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The title says it all.
When you run out of blade!!!
You probably should have posted this in the honing section of the forum.
In theory, over-honing will result in a wire edge. In practice, I never have been able to produce or see one on a straight razor. I know others have seen them, but I never have.
Over-honing can also lead to a fragile edge. Mainly on synthetics, if you do too many strokes on the higher grits (like 8k and above) you can end up with a fragile edge that degrades very quickly.
Because she tells you off. Stops making you hot drinks and food. And starts hiding kitchen knives because she cuts herself every time she cooks, Because apparently kitchen knives do not make a good practice medium.
i get over honed (wire edge) razors all the time on certain ones. still figuring out how to avoid it.
Well,,,,,,
When you find yourself no longer cruising the classified section or Ebay for exotic hones.
When you would rather spend your free time with the brushes.
When your sleep is not interrupted by dreams of endless grit progressions & slurried sheets.
Then your pretty much over honing,,,,:shrug:
Dude, you're crushing my slurry
I think over honing is what Utopian said. Creating a wire edge that feels very jagged and uncomfortable when shaving after that wire breaks off. I've done it a bunch of times using barber hones with way too many strokes..
When you are focusing on one side of the blade only with hundreds of strokes, then do one X and try to shave. A wire edge is created on that side (felt on the other), thus overhoning.
Don't worry about it. It's not "probably overhoning" the answer to most honing related problems.
The biggest indicated for me is that I have been honing using a 13K Sigma II. Other than that it is not usually a problem. It is often indicated with a fuzzy edge when inspecting with a loupe and a harsh, prickly shave during the shave test. It is also called micro chipping.
I have never ever had a pleasant shave right off the sigma 13k. The harshest stone there is. But if followed by some CeO (0.3 micron in my case), all is well. Again, in my case, I don't think it's overhoning, but it could very well be micro chipping.Quote:
Originally Posted by RezDog
One arm looks bigger than the other.
Some stones are more easily Over-honed, for me the GS20 is one. Personally, I do not like the edge off that stone unless it is stropped with Chrome Oxide, CBN or lots of leather. Too many laps on it will cause the edge to micro-chip, I believe from too thin an edge. It is a high grit, hard, aggressive stone. Pressure plays a big part in what happens to the edge and when combined with an aggressive stone, cuts deep stria at the edge. This is what a lot of the inexpensive stones with soft binders do, they are just too aggressive for razors because of self slurrying.
Many times what is called Over-honing is a similar result, a micro-chipped edge, caused by a bevel that was not fully set. If the bevel is not fully set on a low grit stone, so that the edge is straight and meeting and set later, on a high grit stone with pressure, the edge will crumble and chip, because it was not straight. This is not over-honing, but often gets the blame. New honers are often in a hurry and use more pressure than necessary on all stones in the progression and while stropping. The extra pressure while stropping breaks a thin edge.
As said too many laps on one side also can raise a burr causing a similar condition, where the edge/burr will break off. Too many circles at higher grits, with pressure can be a cause while setting a bevel with a high grit stone.
Either way, no matter the cause or what you call it, the solution is simple, lightly joint the edge to get a straight edge and good solid steel then reset the edge, once the bevels are flat an in the correct plane it should only take a few laps, usually 10-20 to get them meeting again. Just make sure you are honing all the way to the edge and let the stone do the work.
I find jointing an edge after 1k makes a straight and stronger edge, especially for new honers.
That is very funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by puketui41
Over-honing is the opposite of under-honing which is not honed-enough. So in practice a under-honed blade will not cut hairs while an over-honed blade would cut them very easily and the honed-enough blade would shave OK.
For me a over-honed edge is fragile and might give a half a shave and then fail. A honed-enough edge would provide a good-enough shave over and over again while a under-honed edge will not work at all. The difference between a under-honed edge and an over-honed can be as little as 100 strokes or 500 or more, and somewhere in the middle there, between the bevel setter and the over-honed edge is a perfectly comfortable and sharp enough edge.
When honing a razor I am always looking for the sharp-enough edge with the minimum number of strokes, and the I add a few more carefully practiced strokes to just kick it up a notch. The difference between a HHT-4 and HHT-5 is just a few, less than a dozen strokes usually with clear water, the same between HHT's 3&4. Adding 100 more strokes to a razor that is already sharp-enough will not make it sharper and sharper, if it did than 20,000 strokes would make 20,000 times sharper.
Knowing when to stop is the secret, in my opinion, and that point for me is usually just beyond when the previous scratches are removed. If the perfectly bevel set razor can shave arm hair, then the perfect stage of shave ready is not that far beyond. A lot of people do not realize how fast many of these stones are and how few strokes it actually takes to remove the previous grits scratches.
Access to the edge is paramount and a fully set bevel is necessary for your finishing stone to have access to the edge. One way to tell you to move on after your bevel set is shaving arm hair is to use alternate direction angle strokes with each stone, if you can see with a loupe or strong glass the scratches first going this / way, and then with your next stone they are going \ that way then you have removed the previous scratches. If on your final finishing and expensive stone you make straight on strokes like this | and the diagonal \ strokes from before are gone then it is time to strop and test shave or test HHT's. All this is predicated though on your minimizing your stroke count, adding hundreds of strokes screws on top of the geometry of the original perfectly designed bevel set profile changes the game. Like in baseball if you hit a home run, you only get credit for running the bases once, if you go around 2 or 3 times you just look like a fool.
just my opinion,
Alex Gilmore
I'm a little wary of the empirical tests for honing. In fact, I have no idea what HHT 1-5 mean. I occasionally do a HHT for a small audience that will throw a coin or two into a hat.
But this came to me regarding over-honing: Does anyone do a HHT after shaving with a HHT approved razor before re-stropping? And then again after stropping?
Would a fail indicate over-honing?
Overhoning is very rare or impossible for hard steel (approx > 60 HRC). Wire edge is made by forming softer steel during sharpening with greater pressure.
I think wire edge on straight razor is too much pressure during honing and bad steel.
I consider overhoning as sharpening beyond what is needed, which leads to reduced or bad performance with the blade. For instance, a butter knife should be dull so that it will shear the butter, causing it to stick to the knife, and spread the butter evenly. A sharp butter knife is overhoned and will slice through the butter causing it to fall off of the knife and make a scraping sound on the bread as the blade cuts the butter and the bread instead of shearing it to spread.
As for HHT, I only use it as a rough guide that the bevel is set. A fail for me would mean that the bevel isn't set, so under honed.
Look at edge under magnification, if it looks ragged and sort of saw tooth looking you have gone to far or the steel is fragile in that spot. If it looks like that, edge the blade on the corner of the hone and start over, if it comes back try adding a tape layer.
Once I've gotten over 1k I don't think I've ever over honed
Most honers do overhone, from time to time. The result is a fragile edge.
I find that using to much time with finishers of high grid is the problem. There's really no need to go beyond 10k.
The key to every honing session is to use as few strokes as possible. That can be done with fast hones, like naniwas. When the bevel is set the rest of the progression should be very straightforward and seldom require more then 20 - 30 strokes pr stone.
Naturals takes a bit longer, but not much using coticules or thuringians.
Watching gsixguns videos of one hone progression can be and eye opener. Very few strokes, slow and precise. That's what we are going after.
Actually I think it could be fun making a contest of who can hone a razor with fewest strokes :-)
Ahhh, he who gets base hits will win the game, just don’t stop running in the middle of the bases.Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
Jobu
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/qhrXMrJ.png[/IMG]
2015 "ROYALS"
I use a Norton 4000/8000. I followed Lynn's recommendation of using the circle method on the 4, then the X. I then went to the 8K side and did about 20 X's. It cut the hair on my arm OK.
Then did 6 X's on a flat pasted (diamond .25) leather block. followed by 15 passes on the linen with 30 passes on the strop.
Shave was harsh and pulled. Did I over hone or was it caused by the diamond paste?
If I go back to hone again, am I in danger of a wire edge?
Granted, some of the answers here are funny...
I do have a very hard stone that is supposed to be 12K or above... If I use it after the 8K should I skip any touching of the diamond pad?
I would ...Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo
Maybe a few passes on cro/Ox
Then fabric.
Then leather, JMHO
You should be able to get a very comfortable shave off of the 8K. I would work on the 8K as a finisher until you can get a comfortable shave and then progress further. I never use diamond pastes so i will not comment on that, but learning to shave off of the 8K is basically learning the fundamentals on the lower hones first. Essentially the bevel set is the base or foundation of a sharp edge. If it is not correctly done, all else fails. If you can get together with another member or get to a meet it will do amazing things for your abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo
What does the edge look like, when looking straight down on the edge?
What did the edge look like before you started honing?
What kind of stone is your “12K”?
Pics would be helpful.
No, you are in no danger of overhoning, I would bet, the bevel is not fully set, yet…
I would also say it needs more work on the bevel. Do you have a 1k?
When I first started honing I had a Norton "4K/8K". I'm convinced that the 4K side was closer to 1k, leaving me to make a huge jump detween grits. This left me spending way too much time on the 8k. The edges would look okay under magnification but after a couple uses it would develop tiny chips at the apex and feel hash. I attribute this to too much time on the 8K, and I mean a long time on 8K. Eventually I got some Naniwas and was blown away when I had a decent progression to hone on. The difference was like night and day. I never looked back or touched a Norton again. It seems like people worry way too much about over honing when they are staring out and I think it often leads to under honing.
In the classical terminology it might require a low grit and some pressure to create the over honed crumbly edge. In very disciplined terms you are over honing the moment you make a single unnecessary stroke on a grit lower than required. Once a 4K does its job, move up. To avoid too much honing, I usually take the simple approach. I move up in grit and retest the edge. It should improve. If it does not, the original stone did not finish the task assigned to it. I simply go back down.
The key to this though is learning how to tell when the edge is progressing. That takes a little practice.
Maybe some can relate, being a knife guy and having huge hands and diamond stones I can put an edge on a knife in no time, that does Not transfer to honing a straight razor well at all, the biggest problem I have dealt with is the weight of the razor only on butterfly kisses light X strokes on the stone.
1K bevel setting, that is where the micro chipping starts with pressure, which is always my tendency, even stropping I have to really watch out for too much pressure.
Having patience and keeping the pressure Off the razor is key for new honers IMHO.
When you reach the spine................STOP!!!
Uhh Yep, that would be over honing, :rofl2:Quote:
Originally Posted by samda
School me on steel hardness. I have 7 straights, all older ones. Most are Wade & Butcher, sword and crown, keystone, and double duck. Are these considered soft or hard steel?
Anything fresh off the hone I give it 50+ laps on rough leather and then 100+ on smooth. Will do this 2 or more times if edge seems harsh. Try without the diamond paste or the 12k, they may be the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo
Unless you 12k is a 12k synthetic, leave it out of the mix. It is probably not 12k if it’s an Ebay stone, more like 6K and will just screw up your progression.
Same with the Diamond, it is notorious for a harsh edge.
Look at the edge, make sure you have honed all the way to the edge and have a fully set bevel, probably not because you have done too few laps and you never move up until you are absolutely sure the bevel is completely set…
No, none of those razors are especially hard.
+1. I have experienced exactly this a few times in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by alx
Wade and butchers Are rather soft, while sword and crown (ERN) are rather hard. I haven't tried a double duck, since there are really rare in my part of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by kimo