Finish hone after flattening?

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Originally Posted by jnats

Don't worry. That's science. Move forward and get the results. It is not of much help that many in online forums reccomend the Norton 4k/8k. The 8k is a fine stone, but the 4k is not a dependable razor stone. Shapton glass 3k is a great stone, you are smart to use bottled water- that was good, so don't beat yourself up.

I can't say enough good things for the shapton glass 3k and 6k. Those 2 are its finest achievements in my opinion. They should serve you very well. The 3k cuts like a good kiita. A very clean stone as well. I don't use synthetics in the 15k range- they are all rubbish imho.

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Thank you again for your encouragement. I can't figure out why Norton continues to be so recommened. I will never recommend it to anyone. Eventually, if I ever develop any clout, I will always recommend some other solution. I have to say, the 8k does work very nice. It really amazed me one time when it literally melted the 4k scratches away. That was very exciting.

I agree again on the Shapton 15K. I've been fighting with that stone as well.

So you see my problem. Lot's of research. Buy the recommended gear. Deal with rare water issues with no one else has ever had. Fight with stones that are supposed to "just work." Wearing out the recommended diamond plate. Now I'm back to the beginning needing a homing solution, but not sure of anything I'm reading anymore. What drives me on is this intense desire to hone razors.

I realize you are a gnat user, but you seem to have some great insight. Further recommendations are surely welcome. Thank you.

Couldn't be simpler. A 1k bevel setter of good razor quality. The Shapton glass 3k and a razor quality japanese whetstone. 3 hones. Add an atoma #400 for lapping and an atoma #1200 for refreshing/ slurry.

You'll get the best edges and the easiest way possible. The only thing that could be better, is if there was a better synthetic bevel setter than the chosera 1k- as it is a insidious green goo beast. FOr that reason, I'd actually suggest forgoing the 1k at first and learning to bevel set on the 3k SG. Your scratches will be shallower and edge cleaner, and it's more forgiving with more strokes to refine your technique. So: 2 hones is really all you need, you can add asano nagura if you like- they're easy and teach good slurry techniques while still giving you easy to access, quasi static level, grits, until the slurry breaks down but they're not required for great quality stones. i.e. botan will start at approx 6k, tenjyou nagura ~8k and mejiro ~10k rough grit equivalents. But they're not equivalent. They're different and they refine. Still that is the range they do their work in/the hones they replace.

A 26$ ebay usb scope will help you really see the edge and what is going on.

Also, electrical tape for your spines and a strop.

That's the best advice I can give you starting out, and those stones should all serve you well for a long time.

Bozam, we'll get this sorted out. The Norton 4k and 8k hones are not the best hones but they work very well. There is nothing particularly bad about them. Odds are good that whatever problem you are having with them you will have the same problem with a new hone.

Would you please clarify specifically what problems you are having with them? Have you used any other hones for straights?

Regarding the DMT, did you only lap the Nortons with it? Did you lap under running water with just the weight of the hone? I still have my first DMT 8C that I got in 2007 and it still works fine despite using it to lap many hard synthetic and natural hones with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jnats

Couldn't be simpler. A 1k bevel setter of good razor quality. The Shapton glass 3k and a razor quality japanese whetstone. 3 hones. Add an atoma #400 for lapping and an atoma #1200 for refreshing/ slurry.

You'll get the best edges and the easiest way possible. The only thing that could be better, is if there was a better synthetic bevel setter than the chosera 1k- as it is a insidious green goo beast. FOr that reason, I'd actually suggest forgoing the 1k at first and learning to bevel set on the 3k SG. Your scratches will be shallower and edge cleaner, and it's more forgiving with more strokes to refine your technique. So: 2 hones is really all you need, you can add asano nagura if you like- they're easy and teach good slurry techniques while still giving you easy to access, quasi static level, grits, until the slurry breaks down but they're not required for great quality stones. i.e. botan will start at approx 6k, tenjyou nagura ~8k and mejiro ~10k rough grit equivalents. But they're not equivalent. They're different and they refine. Still that is the range they do their work in/the hones they replace.

A 26$ ebay usb scope will help you really see the edge and what is going on.

Also, electrical tape for your spines and a strop.

That's the best advice I can give you starting out, and those stones should all serve you well for a long time.

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Thank you very much for that advice. With all I have read, and my two months experience, I think that is very sound advice. I'll digest that, take a look around for the sources, let it settle in, and when the time is right, move on to success. Thanks. I'm glad I stopped by today.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Bozam, we'll get this sorted out. The Norton 4k and 8k hones are not the best hones but they work very well. There is nothing particularly bad about them. Odds are good that whatever problem you are having with them you will have the same problem with a new hone.

Would you please clarify specifically what problems you are having with them? Have you used any other hones for straights?

Regarding the DMT, did you only lap the Nortons with it? Did you lap under running water with just the weight of the hone? I still have my first DMT 8C that I got in 2007 and it still works fine despite using it to lap many hard synthetic and natural hones with it.

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The water issues I had hit me right off the bat. My Norton's were getting very soft and I could not find any information anywhere for why. It dawned on me one day as I was considering the problem, that I had a water softener. It didn't make a lot of sense, but I switched over to Reverse Osmosis water. I was almost crazy when I had similar, but slightly different problems.

So I eventually bought some spring water and the softening finally stopped. I was frequently lapping these Nortons during this entire time, since I had this softer layer to get rid of. There is a good chunk lapped away, maybe I can measure that latter. (The lapping loss is just under 2/10 ths of an inch with the 4k side loss being slightly more than the 8k side.)

They have worked ok for a few weeks now, but with all the problems I've had, I'm not real happy with them. The 4K side has gone from a more granular texture at the beginning, to a finer type of finish as of today. This change in granular consistency has left me with a 4k that doesn't have the cutting power it had just a few weeks ago.

The DMT has been used extensively during this time always under running water. I did lap the Shapton 1K and that was before reading all the bad things not to do with your DMT. I have since used toothbrushes and other brushes to clean it. But the cutting power did not decline all at once. It has been a slow decline in cutting power. The Shapton 12K has not been lapped. I could not bring myself to put a diamond hone to it.

You gotta lap your 12k if you're gonna use it for razors. I'm sure utopian will clarify- but the 4k shift sounds like you miss the rough layer. I hate all the layers. But the finer layer is the layer you would want if intending to hone razors on it. Also, the dmt should dull very quickly off the bat, this is breaking it in- not breaking it. Though I would throw an atoma 140 at a 1k before I did with a dia flat on the regular basis- as 1k will eat the diamonds out of the matrix, and dia flats are rather pricey. You also have to be very careful to scrub with soap and water all your surfaces, plates and finger pads between grits to avoid grit contamination. The joys of synthetics.

Many people, including myself, have used the Nortons with water. I have a Norton Tri-hone that I leave positioned with the 8k out of the water and the 4k and 1k submerged. They have been submerged for years with no softening or other ill effect. I suppose it's possible that you got a dud but it's not likely given that both sides are affected. There would have to be something very wrong with your water to cause that problem.

The gritty outer layer that can occur in the 4k apparently is gone, given your description, but the current layer should be sufficient to hone away prior 1k scratches. How many strokes would you estimate that you need on average on the 4k?

With a magnesia binder his water would only need be low in pH, as acid eats MgO quite easily.

I don't know what the binder for Nortons is, but lots of people store their hones in water all the time and I would assume at least some of them have acidic water.

Given that bozam has had this issue, he might as well not leave them soaking and that alone will eliminate the issue.

I must have missed the part were he said he leaves them soaking.
Either way they need to be soaked for 30 minutes before use.