Help IDing a hone

Won a random antique pack online which arrived today. I bought it for the potential straights and strops restoration projects. The seller added some bonus items that he'd not pictured in the listing including a pocket logarithmic slide rule...and a decent-sized coticule! More interested in the stone to be honest. It's certainly seen better days and is very dished, but I think there's still a few viable millimetres left on it. I was hoping you guys might help identify it.

Of course you'll need photos, but I've not done this before so wonder what you'd like me to focus on?

Here are some preliminary photos of the stone pre-lapped.
I concede the images are rubbish but it's nighttime here so once I have your guidance I'll set up some better lit shots tomorrow morning.

Size is 7"x2"

Side view

Attachment 225632

Bottom : dark half
Attachment 225633

Top: light half
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Close-up
Attachment 225637

It appears to be a natural coticule. Here is a link: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...e-bb-hone.html

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Originally Posted by WW243

It appears to be a natural coticule. Here is a link: http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...e-bb-hone.html

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Thanks WW243.:tu A bonus too as I was only expecting the synthetic "Hone Your Own: Perforated Razor Hone" which also arrived in the collection. Not quite sure if I'll use that one much. But this natural coticule will get lapped tomorrow and might have a first date with some Sheffield steel, before its outing with harder Solingens.

Any ideas on the layer...or what more information I'll need to gather to ID the layer?

Before I hit the hay, a couple more images of the stone wet.

Attachment 225638

Attachment 225639

In comparison to my only other coticule - La Dressente - this stone is a paler yellow. No pink/red tints or black (manganese?) spots. However, this stone has a greyish 'grain' (seriously looks like a wood grain). Also my La Dressente is clearly glued to dark slate, this does not appear glued but a natural non-uniform layer and the dark stone is lighter with a more reddish tint.

Would a photo of the slurry help....she'll be well slurried noting I need to take almost half the top off to remove the dish :(

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Originally Posted by stillshunter

Thanks WW243.:tu A bonus too as I was only expecting the synthetic "Hone Your Own: Perforated Razor Hone" which also arrived in the collection. Not quite sure if I'll use that one much. But this natural coticule will get lapped tomorrow and might have a first date with some Sheffield steel, before its outing with harder Solingens.

Any ideas on the layer...or what more information I'll need to gather to ID the layer?

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That info would be above my pay grade. There are some Coticuliers hereabouts so one of them might weigh in...

Just for giggles, don't lap it yet. Try honing a razor on it as is. Clearly someone else was using it in that condition in order for it to get to that condition so see if you can replicate their stroke.

I have a coticule dished much worse than that. Rather than lapping it away, I use the high ends as rubbing stones. I'll have that sucker flat in another 30-40 years!

Did Bill just say Coticuliers?

Yes, don’t lap flat. Just yet…

As long as it is smooth, it will work just fine.

Also try the Belgium Blue side, that side you may want to lap lightly.
Sounds like your other coticule is backed with slate.

Your pictures look as vintage as your coticule :)

Lots of pictures and details of the various veins here:

http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020...whetstones.pdf

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Originally Posted by sqzbxr

Lots of pictures and details of the various veins here:

http://bosq.home.xs4all.nl/info%2020...whetstones.pdf

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Been looking for that all night! Thank you!!!

Oh it would be a shame to send all that coti down the drain. I would either use it as is with a dedicated razor or cut the extreme ends off and use them as rub stones. After the high spots at the ends are cut off you won't have to remove/waste anywhere near as much material to flatten the middle section.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Oh it would be a shame to send all that coti down the drain. I would either use it as is with a dedicated razor or cut the extreme ends off and use them as rub stones. After the high spots at the ends are cut off you won't have to remove/waste anywhere near as much material to flatten the middle section.

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I agree mate, just that I don't have the required toolage to cut the coti. Instead I'm thinking of lapping carefully enough to capture the slurry. Letting it stand and settle, to separate from the water for use during subsequent honing sessions.

A hacksaw will do the job! I've cut countless stones with a hacksaw in the past.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

A hacksaw will do the job! I've cut countless stones with a hacksaw in the past.

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OK you got me intrigued now. So you proposing to cut the stone laterally along the addition light (e.g., La Dressente) layer - parallel to the seam. Or make two perpendicular cuts on either end to shorten the length and come out with two slurry stones?

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Originally Posted by stillshunter

OK you got me intrigued now. So you proposing to cut the stone laterally along the addition light (e.g., La Dressente) layer - parallel to the seam. Or make two perpendicular cuts on either end to shorten the length?

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Sorry mate I just reread your response again. So you do mean cut off the two ends. You know I really like this idea! Noting the stone is 7" long, how much would you recommend losing each end...1/2 or full inch each?

P.S., will just a normal 'for metal' blade do the deed?

Resist flattening that stone before you at least spend some time on it.You may be surprised at
the results,it's less work just to leave it alone too.Lots of barber's hones look that way... Rather,lots of barber's coticules look that way...

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Originally Posted by stillshunter

Sorry mate I just reread your response again. So you do mean cut off the two ends. You know I really like this idea! Noting the stone is 7" long, how much would you recommend losing each end...1/2 or full inch each?

P.S., will just a normal 'for metal' blade do the deed?

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I would lay a straight edge across the stone and get an idea about the curvature that way. You might find that if you remove a half inch from either end you won't have to lap off anywhere near as much to get it flat. Even an inch off either side wouldn't kill it for me, I like 2" X 5" stones quite a lot, but I hand hold my stones. A plain metal cutting hacksaw blade will easily make two cuts through that stone.

Alternatively, you could just leave it as is, but you'd have to pretty much dedicate whatever razor you used to that stone unless you wanted to reset the bevel anytime you switched to a different stone with that razor - which would be a waste of steel. For myself, I'd rather flatten the stone.

Depending on how consistent the dish is, it could be used strictly as a finisher with water only. I have a vintage coti with a similar dish. I'll do my dilutions on another stone then finish water only on the dished stone. The dish creates a secondary bevel similar to what you would get if you taped the spine. The edges off the dished stone shave great. I'd at least give it a try before I lapped or cut it, you might be pleasantly surprised.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Just for giggles, don't lap it yet. Try honing a razor on it as is. Clearly someone else was using it in that condition in order for it to get to that condition so see if you can replicate their stroke.

I have a coticule dished much worse than that. Rather than lapping it away, I use the high ends as rubbing stones. I'll have that sucker flat in another 30-40 years!

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+1.......,,,,,

That's a beautiful stone by the way..

Thanks for all your help fellas. I ended up opting for the cut and lap option. I tried it as-is and it felt a little awkward....also I've been thinking about a travel hone which this might serve the purpose of down the track.

So here's the result.

http://i.imgur.com/9Ibzl44.jpg

I ended up taking just over 10mm (~1/2") off each end. Saw them clear with a standard hacksaw with a standard Bahco blade. Easy work! This left me with two neat little slurry stones and less than 2mm to lap out the dish. A hard 2mm though BTW....so very appreciative of the advice to trim the ends as it gave me less of the harder work to do. Also saved off the slurry, so have about 2L of slurry water which I hope to condense down to a nice slurry paste.

So I ended up with a handy little stone of 150x50mm and two slurry stones for both sides of that stone - as I'm thinking this will be my first combination stone...unless y'all don't agree that it's viable (e.g. BBW)

Now towards identification, here's the slurry on each side.

http://i.imgur.com/b7nrLKp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/8x6RXOi.jpg

I'm initially inclined towards a La Dressante au bleu.

The back certainly isn't slate nor glued on. Not sure if it is BBW or Rouge du Salm....as I only have slate to compare it to.

Be keen on your feedback.

....and in a matter of hours we'll see how she hones.

At this point your hone test is all that counts.

Just finished honing a Bengall. Funny how it kind of looks similar to my other coticule - the La Dressante (I believe Top Layer) but this one hones so very differently. This stone feels harder and slower - while my other bout is almost chalky soft yet faster. I tried a combination hone:
a) slurry on the beige,
b) water on the blue,
c) water on the beige.
Under the scope the edge looks finer and cleaner than the other coti. I'll know more when I test shave tomorrow morning, though won't be surprised if this edge is a little less mellow.

Looks good, nice looking coti! I think you might be surprised by the shave, the harder stones generally give better edges, but you need to be sure the top of the stone is well smoothed after flattening with the diamond plate.

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Looks good, nice looking coti! I think you might be surprised by the shave, the harder stones generally give better edges, but you need to be sure the top of the stone is well smoothed after flattening with the diamond plate.

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Great call!
I just went Atoma 400 to flatten. What would you suggest to smoothen?

Some guys like to use up to 2000 grit wet/dry but for my own coticule I flatten with a 1200 Atoma then make a couple rub stone slurries and rinse them away. I try to avoid lapping unless the stone is getting quite a ways out of flat as well.

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Originally Posted by stillshunter

The back certainly isn't slate nor glued on. Not sure if it is BBW or Rouge du Salm....as I only have slate to compare it to.

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Thats not easy to be clarified because "La Lorraine" is a special layer between two BBW layers. You can mostly make it out on its coloration because it really shows a wine red color...

Here is a comparison shot, where you can see on the right side a typical blue BBW...on the left is la Lorraine...

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/675/2...682ff9_c_d.jpg

Here are three different looking types of La Lorraine:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5824/2...388ebfdb55.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eKretz

Some guys like to use up to 2000 grit wet/dry but for my own coticule I flatten with a 1200 Atoma then make a couple rub stone slurries and rinse them away. I try to avoid lapping unless the stone is getting quite a ways out of flat as well.

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Thanks mate. Well I went with the Chosera 1k. It did come out smoother that's for certain. Great tip!!!!

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Originally Posted by doorsch

Thats not easy to be clarified because "La Lorraine" is a special layer between two BBW layers. You can mostly make it out on its coloration because it really shows a wine red color...

Here is a comparison shot, where you can see on the right side a typical blue BBW...on the left is la Lorraine...

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/675/2...682ff9_c_d.jpg

Here are three different looking types of La Lorraine:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5824/2...388ebfdb55.jpg

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@doosch, mate, thanks so much for this. This morning I was deadset it was just BBW, but looking a your shots now I'm not so sure... Here's another photo in daylight...what do you reckon?

http://i.imgur.com/7REhYc2.jpg

BTW: I honed a Hamburg Ring with both sides of this stone this morning through a progression of:
Chosera 1k (bevel set)
BBW w/- slurry
coticule w/- slurry
BBW w/- water
coticule w/- water
Biggest surprise through the scope was the edge after the BBW w/- slurry. Worked a nice thick mud on the stone and at x200 the edge very soft and smooth (almost 'cloudy'). Normal Chosera scratch marks before and normal coti random scratch pattern with the coticule slurry after. Very odd. I wonder of it's nice to shave off. I'm going to give it a go tomorrow morning.

Hey fellas, huge thumbs up for all your input.
Cheers!

Well it looks like a Lorraine, in the end you can only tell if it really is ;-)

you should receive a very polished bevel with that one. You should also get a comfortable shave on par with a standard type Coticule....

You can try a progression with the lorraine Only and see how you come around with that shave...

I've now had a few more days to compare my two coticules. I admit at first I thought the new one was just another La Dressante. But the more I use them the less alike they are. I know it doesn't really matter which layer the new (to me) coticule is, but I am curious to better understand its background.

The La Dressante (LD) bout is to the right and the UNID coticule is on the left.

http://i.imgur.com/GsgzWOX.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/X5ZOGmw.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/EN231AQ.jpg

The UNID:
- is backed with La Lorraine, the LD with slate
- slurries very willingly, while the LD takes some work
- is moderate to slow with slurry unless you use pressure and then it blackens fast
- feels harder than the LD. The LD almost feels 'sticky' in comparison.
- gives a crisper edge, while the LD seems more mellow.
- more coffee coloured with grey grain. While LD is lighter beige with pink shade and manganese droplets

Hope you can help.
P.S. Happy to take whatever additional photos you think would help.