Thread: coticule vs ss12k?

Your right Jkatz, many out there jumped onto the 20k suehiro, like a fashion statement having one on your lounge room table, vital. Synthetic stones are more accurate and clinical, so from someone using a 20k in Sydney, will get the identical result in your part of the world. Then we hear chatter of 'smoothing things out' with coticules or other natural stones. Well guys, the dog has finally caught up with it's tail!

Team,

I have never seen a coticule that can finish on a high 12-15K level. They are rated around 8K for a reason. Some may be slightly finer, some less fine. We solve this problem by using tricks (finishing under water, using oil, using tape to make a microbevel, etc).

Now I am not saying they can not be good hones, they are, but to say they cut this high is not true. Coticules edges feel smooth to the skin due to the way the garnets cut the steel. They still cut hair on an 6-8k level depending on the stone, they just feel smoother because of the way the bevel is scratched. If you notice the actual cutting action with the razor on your face and not the smoothness difference you will see what I mean. you can also cut the hair on your leg around an inch high off the skin and see how it cuts. Then compare it to another hone of a particular grit level and compare the cutting action.

When testing an edge pay attention to the reaction of the cut, that is an indicator of the actually edge.
the only coticule I have heard of that can cut around a 12K level is the Salm rock, they are very rare and sell for a lot of money. They are very fine but also have strong cutting power (not slow).

I own a coticule that was intended for razors, a vintage one. The label says for razor use on it. It destroys an edge to under a 1K level, its useless. I have others that are better, but they are by no means a 12K stone. When Bart came out with the unicot method and then created coticule.be a big boost is coticule use happened, this is great, but also misleading. Everyone and their sister now thinks you can use a coticule from bevel to finish and have a 15K finish...not the case. Your stone can only be a fine as it is with water and no more. Oil will coat the stone and make it act finer, so will later or running tap water. These are tricks to avoid using a finer stone after the coticule.

Originally Posted by Disburden

Team,

I have never seen a coticule that can finish on a high 12-15K level. They are rated around 8K for a reason. Some may be slightly finer, some less fine. We solve this problem by using tricks (finishing under water, using oil, using tape to make a microbevel, etc).

Now I am not saying they can not be good hones, they are, but to say they cut this high is not true. Coticules edges feel smooth to the skin due to the way the garnets cut the steel. They still cut hair on an 6-8k level depending on the stone, they just feel smoother because of the way the bevel is scratched. If you notice the actual cutting action with the razor on your face and not the smoothness difference you will see what I mean. you can also cut the hair on your leg around an inch high off the skin and see how it cuts. Then compare it to another hone of a particular grit level and compare the cutting action.

When testing an edge pay attention to the reaction of the cut, that is an indicator of the actually edge.
the only coticule I have heard of that can cut around a 12K level is the Salm rock, they are very rare and sell for a lot of money. They are very fine but also have strong cutting power (not slow).

I own a coticule that was intended for razors, a vintage one. The label says for razor use on it. It destroys an edge to under a 1K level, its useless. I have others that are better, but they are by no means a 12K stone. When Bart came out with the unicot method and then created coticule.be a big boost is coticule use happened, this is great, but also misleading. Everyone and their sister now thinks you can use a coticule from bevel to finish and have a 15K finish...not the case. Your stone can only be a fine as it is with water and no more. Oil will coat the stone and make it act finer, so will later or running tap water. These are tricks to avoid using a finer stone after the coticule.

You sound like you've lost your love for the cotis. Interestingly, I was just thinking of you today. I recently got a 4x2 Genuine Belgian Coti similar to the one you had a few years back. I've been waiting a really long time to find one like it, and I touched up a Union Cutlery Co on it that I'd previously finished on my Barbers Delight and it was possibly the most beautiful shave I've ever had. It was definitely cutting at a higher level than 8k, but I wouldn't say as sharp as a SS12.

Interesting to compare thoughts in this thread with your statement about the Salm coti:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...coticules.html

Also of interest is Bart's comments re. Capt Zero in post 22 here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post251465

Back to the OP, if I were you, I'd follow my old mother's timeless advice, 'why buy one when you can buy both!'

And if I were starting all over again, I would buy a good synthetic progression, and a nice Thurrie, then after a year or two of experience with that I'd buy a new coti and and crazy expensive labeled vintage one. That way you'd always be able to put a great edge on your razors but still be able to play around with things.

Originally Posted by Frankenstein

You sound like you've lost your love for the cotis. Interestingly, I was just thinking of you today. I recently got a 4x2 Genuine Belgian Coti similar to the one you had a few years back. I've been waiting a really long time to find one like it, and I touched up a Union Cutlery Co on it that I'd previously finished on my Barbers Delight and it was possibly the most beautiful shave I've ever had. It was definitely cutting at a higher level than 8k, but I wouldn't say as sharp as a SS12.

Interesting to compare thoughts in this thread with your statement about the Salm coti:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/hones...coticules.html

Also of interest is Bart's comments re. Capt Zero in post 22 here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...tml#post251465

Back to the OP, if I were you, I'd follow my old mother's timeless advice, 'why buy one when you can buy both!'

And if I were starting all over again, I would buy a good synthetic progression, and a nice Thurrie, then after a year or two of experience with that I'd buy a new coti and and crazy expensive labeled vintage one. That way you'd always be able to put a great edge on your razors but still be able to play around with things.

No I love coticules still to this day, but I am more realistic about them then I used to be.

When you find a good one, they are very fun stones, but they have their place in a progression just like any other hone. I owned a deep rock with the sticker on the back and it was a decent stone, but no where near the super fine status of a Salm rock. It was around 8K. I also owned an old rock and it was fine, but again around 8K... The finest coticule I ever had was an old one and it was very hard. It was a large stone, almost ten inches and 2.5 inches wide. I sold it....::Sigh:::

Originally Posted by Disburden

No I love coticules still to this day, but I am more realistic about them then I used to be.

When you find a good one, they are very fun stones, but they have their place in a progression just like any other hone. I owned a deep rock with the sticker on the back and it was a decent stone, but no where near the super fine status of a Salm rock. It was around 8K. I also owned an old rock and it was fine, but again around 8K... The finest coticule I ever had was an old one and it was very hard. It was a large stone, almost ten inches and 2.5 inches wide. I sold it....::Sigh:::

Thanks for the insight! I have followed and lurked on forums over the years at your posts, from Undilucot and on. I really relate to this one. Really.

I picked up a black arkansas to throw in after a coticule. Looking forward to see what happens. I find the "tricks" we invent for coticules, while very helpful, might be misleading. *might be*.

I have always wondered, and I can't prove this—maybe someone can help me (with a microscope; or do me a solid favor and just tell me i'm wrong so I can go back to the drawing board)—but I have a theory about coticules:

They're not bad hones, but *sometimes* inappropriate ones.

Coticules, and their slurries, do a good job when done right, the edge is somewhat rounded—I can't explain it, it's like the bevel is a tight U instead of, per OP's curiousity, the near-perfect V the Naniwa 12k delivers.

I wonder if it's because coticule slurry never actually hits the entire bevel, just the tip of the edge, slowly blunting it if you're not careful about the dilutions.

Without hitting the entire bevel... hht and all the other more popular sharpness tests seem to fail (admittedly the usual case with my coticules; they do shave ok tho).

That coticule slurry only sharpens the edge of the edge but not the entire bevel explains:

1. Why we recommend Unicot (shorten the bevel so the slurry can actually cover the whole plain).
2. Why Dr. Matt's method works (he does stropping strokes under water)
3. Why traditional dilucot sometimes works (half strokes, on the return stroke it's a half strop stroke)
4. Why "you NEED a linen strop" (linen, being the most aggressive, when we strop stroke aligns the entire bevel).
5. Why we recommend soapy water, oil, and glycerin (trap the garnets so the whole bevel is hit on the edge and under the
blade, as opposed to slowly swimming over the edge )
6. Why circles seem to produce more consistent results
7. Why we recommend BBWs to newer guys (the garnets are larger while the concentration of slurry is lower... even bevel sharpening).
8. Why coticules are almost always a terrible choice on wide bevels (too much surface area for the large rhomboid garnets to hit?


When I started doing strop strokes in between dilutions, my shaves got much better.

But I agree, coticules almost always left me begging for more!

Now—Someone please tell me I'm overthinking this and just learn my hone. Thanks!

Your observations are accurate. Some coticulea release other material when rubbed for slurry that I think actually damages the edge. This is why I prefer harder ones.

Whenever you want to hear good advice on coticules email howard at the perfect edge.

Originally Posted by Disburden

Your observations are accurate. Some coticulea release other material when rubbed for slurry that I think actually damages the edge. This is why I prefer harder ones.

Whenever you want to hear good advice on coticulea emil howard at the perfect edge.

Will do!

Just curious, did you abandon that "undilucot" method? I've had inconsistent results, but I ever outrulled my new status when I started using it a few years ago.

Originally Posted by J743

Will do!

Just curious, did you abandon that "undilucot" method? I've had inconsistent results, but I ever outrulled my new status when I started using it a few years ago.

Well it works and it doesnt depending on the stone. Some coticules are just horrible in slurry so that method fails there. You need a fine coticule that will work and then you need to make sure your slurry stone is fine too. Saying it doesnt matter which slurry stone you use is nonsense too. Slurry from the base stone alone is safest.

Originally Posted by Disburden

Well it works and it doesnt depending on the stone. Some coticules are just horrible in slurry so that method fails there. You need a fine coticule that will work and then you need to make sure your slurry stone is fine too. Saying it doesnt matter which slurry stone you use is nonsense too. Slurry from the base stone alone is safest.

Thanks for adding to the topic Nick, a lot of interesting insights. Regarding the Salim coticule, there is a very well regarded honer in Missouri, and deservedly so, who praised Salim coticules to the skies. Said he had tried 100 coticules and never found a good one until the Salim, and it was the best ever was. I've had a Salim, Old Rock and Deep Rock. Pike's finest, extra, Droescher coticules, + a slue of vintage unknowns. Some were better than others, and the Salim I had was not better than the best of them. So even among that brand all of them are not created equal.



I know a barber in England who is a coticule aficionado. Probably honed on more various coticules than anyone I've known except maybe Bart. He got an Escher Barber's Delight from me and he liked it but the edge was "too crisp" compared to his beloved coticules and he sold it. I know what he means. Sometimes I like crisp, sometimes I want a softer feel. Then I reach for a coticule or a translucent, a black hard ark. Different arrows in the quiver for different days.

On the slurry I completely agree. If the slurry stone comes off of the main stone it is a better match. A mismatch may be fine, but maybe not. Years ago I had a yellow coticule and grabbed a BBW slurry stone because where I was that was all that was available. I was quite surprised that the slurry generated was purple. The BBW was most, if not all of the slurry. I had expected the coticule to predominate but it wasn't even close. That was IME ......... YMMV.

I,be used coticules for years and I also own the full set of naniwas speciality stones 1,3,5,8,10,12 k. I have many times compared both edges. I,ve brought razors honed by Lynn, infact just received my Ralph aust imperial from srd website. I no Ralph uses naniwas and I no Lynn touched my edge up on 12 k and couple of passes on crox. I,ve shaved with Escher edge from sham and among others such as Jamie 20 k g edge.

Just today I used Ralph aust from srd one side and Ralph aust round point 6/8 opposite side honed purely with the coticule .

The coticule edge feels slightly softer while the 12 k edge feel smooth not crisp and cuts very cleanly. Very happy with the razor from srd, it's shave ready and I won't be altering the edge as I like it. I,ve compared the naniwas v coticule edge many time in the last year and I don't Dout you carnt go wrong with naniwas there my favourite synthetic hone giving a clean comfortable cut, granted I do five laps on .5 spray or crhronium oxide paste.

the only way the to find out what one prefers or what works for that individual is to buy both and try them and go with your own experiance. I won't be selling my naniwas or coticules as they both give me great results.