some tips about Japanese hones ?

Hi SRP folks,

As some among you knows, I'm still on the search of a finding hone. And while I was searching on the web, suddenly I found some Japanese hones. Read some, some more and some more but I'm really confused. I'm not so familiar with Japanese language, and I saw some videos while I was learning to hone my kamisoris, there were naturally people who were honing their razors on jap. Hones. But here is the thing, I assume so there is different grits for every jap. Hones as European hones ( coticule, bbw, la lune etc) so I'm wondering how to,know these Japanese hones grits before command them? They are all high grit above 10k? The names I saw Nakayama, honayama etc. But I can't be sure if their grit and if they are really the hone mentioned in the description of items.

So id like to ask,if you can give some,quick tips to,learn these hones. I read some on srp about honyama but I can't be se sure if the hone in looking is it or not ( as you know they are natural hones so not the same shape for all and sometime they have a broking piece)?

Thanks a lot by advance to those who can give a hand

Best advice I can give you is that names & stamps may mean very little as they can be forged.

Buy from a known reputable source who can tailor a stone to your skill level & intended use.

When it comes to Jnats you can be lucky or you can be deliberate.

You can find some basic info under the technique & knowledge tab of the link below:
Japan Tool

There are different "grit" JNats or stones with different abrasive particle sizes, but if you buy from a decent seller they will tell you if the stone is razor grade. All razor grade JNats I have used (currently have 12) have the same abrasive particle size as far as I can tell - they leave nearly identical scratch patterns with slurry when viewed under 250x magnification.

Also be sure to distinguish between razor size stones & razor finishing stones. They are not all identical.

Bonjour Oustoura,

The best way to get a Japanese natural razor hone is to ask the seller for a stone that is razor grade. Also be sure you can return it if you don't like it.

I will try to help you if you want to PM me.

Cheers, Steve

I got mine from Japan Tool: very happy with it. Used after an Escher it will improve the edge.

Japanesenaturalstones.com has a decent explanation of the basics in its wiki. There are a few reputable vendors if you read through the threads here and the best bet is to contact one and explain what you want. They can guide you in the right direction and by all accounts are stand up guys who will do thier best to see you get the right stone.

thanks a lot guys. first i will read all the links given in the post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eddy79

Japanesenaturalstones.com has a decent explanation of the basics in its wiki.

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After reading the above quote I went to this site and read this:
" Why are harder stones for experienced users only? The harder the stone the harder it is to raise slurry from it, on Japanese Natural stones slurry does the work and polishing so if you do not get slurry from your stone there will be no result at all to the user."
I have a hard Nakayama, I use it without slurry and it gives me great edges. So I wondered: is this the common opinion as to how Japanese natural razor hones work?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

After reading the above quote I went to this site and read this:
" Why are harder stones for experienced users only? The harder the stone the harder it is to raise slurry from it, on Japanese Natural stones slurry does the work and polishing so if you do not get slurry from your stone there will be no result at all to the user."
I have a hard Nakayama, I use it without slurry and it gives me great edges. So I wondered: is this the common opinion as to how Japanese natural razor hones work?

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Yes it's pretty common and how true it is depends on how hard your stone is along with the characteristics of the particular stone.

A very, very, hard JNat like those hard gray stones that go cheap tend to - without slurry - burnish (rub off or round off the tops of previous scratches) as much or more than replacing the previous scratch pattern. Some people like this, others do not.

Because they are so hard, you have to make some choices. If you have an equally hard tomo nagura, it may take a long time to produce any slurry and that slurry will be partially broken down by 15-30 minutes of rubbing. You can use a softer tomo nagura, but then you are honing on the tomo nagura slurry only, so the base stone is having little effect, like using mikawa nagura on a hard stone.

A third option which works well is using a worn diamond plate to raise slurry from very hard stones. Diamond plates can raise a slurry from a hard stone quickly and the grit from the base stone can be effectively used. Sometimes this is the best option and beginners can easily use diamond plates on hard stones.

I think what the statement means is that the harder the stone, the more patient you have to be raising slurry. You can't push too hard on the nagura or bad things can happen, like larger particles from the edges, tipping the nagura and scratching the hone, etc. So raising an optimal slurry of both base and nagura on very hard stones requires matching the nagura and patience.

Cheers, Steve

Check out this blog post, and look at the menu to the right of it for more info ;

Buying a Japanese Hone: A Guide for Beginners | Eastern Smooth: The Blog

:gl:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kees

After reading the above quote I went to this site and read this:
" Why are harder stones for experienced users only? The harder the stone the harder it is to raise slurry from it, on Japanese Natural stones slurry does the work and polishing so if you do not get slurry from your stone there will be no result at all to the user."
I have a hard Nakayama, I use it without slurry and it gives me great edges. So I wondered: is this the common opinion as to how Japanese natural razor hones work?

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It's not just about slurry, tho it's pretty much a generality about cosmetic polishing of blade faces on tools swords etc.

An experienced user can use a much harder stone to polish a knife bevel than a beginner because he has light enough hands but slurry is always used. Push hard on sandpaper & you gouge your job. Stones are similar in that an educated hand lets the stone do the work without scratching & in the case of razors without collapsing the edge. On razors hard stones are desirable as they maintain the geometry well.

When you consider how hard awasedo are hardness is a relative term tho. They are all harder than synthetics. A Gokumyo 20k notwithstanding.

Doing a few strokes on water alone on a hard razor stone may give your razor a great shaving edge but may scratch up the soft steel face of a J/ kitchen knife. It's a matter of jockeys for horses not horses for courses :)

From my "limited" experience on European stones, like coticules, eschers, rozsutec, Water of Ayr, surprisingly a TOS, Charnley forest etc... none of them even compare to a good, hard but not overly hard nakayama asagi or shobu asagi (the Ozuku are a bit tricky, they usually are extra hard and make the whole job harder, still for razors they are fine) and nakayama or shobu slurry stone, they don't have to be the same type with the base stone.
Find a reputable seller like Maksim at JNS, Alex at Japanblade, Garret at Japanese-whetstones, all members here. If you know Japanese, I can give you a couple of other sellers, their prices are usually better for the same stone, and you can also try the fine-tools.com who surprisingly started bringing good Jnats.
I have tried other quarries, but their stones are NOT like the above suggestions, not like Nakayama, Shobu and Ozuku. There are also a couple of other contenders like Wakasa, or the rest of the legitimate east Atago mines like Naturaki, Okudo and a couple of others, but try the real deal from the start, and, get an asagi strata stone, with the rest, there is a chance you won't get what you are looking for.
The most recent stone I've tried was a Kozaki kiita, medium hardness stone, eats VG10 steel like a norton 8k, maybe even faster, but the final edge is that of a medium grade coticule, whereas the shave with a good Nakayama, Shobu (shobudani) or Ozuku it was unique, I can't describe it; absolutely smooth, absolutely sharp "I want to marry this stone!" Also, don't get a "type 100" or 15x5cm stone, get an 20x7.5, the full deal.
And final note, stay as far away as possible from 300 mate. Mate used as in "friend".
As for the hardness argument, I disagree, it's not about being amateur. I have a shobu asagi and a nakayama maruka something something, we are working on the naming thing. Similar hardness. Yet one eats steel even without slurry, while the other kind of polishes here and there like a Chinese stone. The shave is great from both of them but the performance isn't. So, I would argue, it's the feedback of a hard stone, not the hardness of the stone.
Good luck.