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Hello everyone. I’ve recently purchased a LVRR cuticule. It was suggested that I burnish the stone before use so I would be able to get good honing results front the stone. I've never been able to find any information or instructions on burnishing a cuticule stone. How’s is this different from normal lapping? What kind of results am I looking for? How do you burnish a cuticule stone and what equipment is needed? Any information and advice is appreciated. Thanks.
In my opinion most coticules will gain little to nothing from burnishing. This is because most of them auto-slurry at least to some extent. For that reason they are constantly revealing fresh cutting particles.
I suppose that I should point out that I have no idea what your LVRR hone is as I don't care at all about vein designations. If for some reason your coticule will benefit from burnishing, then you can just rub the shaft of a screwdriver over the surface or hone a kitchen knife on it. Either should accomplish the burnishing you are seeking.
I don't like the shave off a freshly lapped coticule. I always lightly run a slurry stone over it before honing a razor for keeps. But, I do that with other types of stones also.
My understanding of coticules is the same as Utopian's. They don't seem like a hone type that would benefit from burnishing for the reason stated. I could see where they might be a little rough if you just lap them with 320 and try to take a razor to it, but burnishing as I understand it simply wouldn't work on a coticule.
Some days I feel like I really need to obtain one to play around with, but for the moment I'm busy learning the stones that I have on hand.
Attachment 233548 Wife got me a current production one for Christmas and here's the instructions I got from Jarrod "this looks to me most probable as "La Veille Rouge de Regne", they need to be burnished/polished (you will receive a flat hone, but the surface is rough not smooth), so use thick slurry and kitchen cutlery awhile until you close your eyes and run your hand all over and it feels buttery smooth and glassy"
My stone felt like a washboard when passing a razor over it and after running a knife over it a bunch- I could see pattern of steel stuck on it like on a new Spyderco UF. Under microscope I could see a landscape of peaks and valleys with the metal stuck on the peaks. I used a barber hone to slick mine by knocking the peaks down. I believe what is happening is that the binder in the 'valleys' is softer and when you slurry it erodes faster leaving the peaks. I've been using mine without slurry after smoothing it, i.e., water only. I intended to report when I have used it more, still figuring it out...
Also, when smoothed and with water only it put a fine shaving edge on a couple of Sheffield razors so far.
I have no problem with the smoothing of a rough honing surface. However, I don't consider this to be burnishing, which I consider to be the smoothing of individual pieces of the grit of an already smooth honing surface.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenG
Semantics is not the issue of concern here though. If you have a coticule that has harder peaks and softer valleys, then that is a permanent issue for that hone and, if possible, I would ask to trade it in for another hone with a more uniform surface.
I agree with Utopian on this.
I would recommend new factory hones to be lapped to your liking as they are flattenned but not lapped to the level of our understanding and I can understand why. There are horses for courses and leaving them in that semifinished state gives us all chance to prepare them to our liking.
It seems to me that you are smoothing the stone not burnishing it. Working on the matrix not the garnets. The garnets are so small that they should feel smooth to your hand.
I'm going to echo what the other guys have been saying. I do not think it's possible to burnish a coticule due to the softness of the stone and the auto slurry as utopian mentioned. Smoothing the coticule after lapping on a diamond plate with the slurry stone is a common practice. Makes for a smoother feel while honing. There is some debate on if the smoothed out coticule leads to a finer edge but most do believe it does.
Let us know how you make out.
Most new production stones are la griese. It looks very much like a la griese but it does not matter. Try more lapping with 400 to 600 sand paper. I have the same issue with a similar stone. I lapped with 400 then went to 1200 grit and it felt better with the 400 grit. It does work well, no ill effect to the edge. I just don't like the feel of the stone. It seems to be getting better with use.:shrug:
I do have one coticule that gets burnished with use. So it is possible. I have tried burnishing other cotis too, but they just turned matte really quickly. I guess the stone need to have the right properties. If it doesn't happen naturally, it is not meant to be. That's my experience.
Lap, then rub a slurry stone over the entire surface several times, then take a kitchen knife or an old razor and hone on it till it feels smoother. That is all that is needed, for most cotis atleast.
I've just got my stone today, And I've been playing with it all morning.
It looks similar to KenG's. Probably the same vein.
Out of the box it was very rough to hone on. Felt like marbles or grit with slurry, So I lapped it out with a 400 diamond plate and tested again. It still had the rough feel. So I lapped it again to 1K.
It's an odd rock. I've put 3 razors over it. The original 1K razor came off the rock sharp cutting arm hair and after stropping a reasonable HHT3-4, The second one took a lot longer to get it to feel right on the rock, and came away with an edge that refused to cut arm hair, After stropping this went into a really solid HHT4.
The last razor well I didn't use slurry on the second razor, And by the time I got to this 3rd razor the rock is so slow I can't see any material been removed in the water. I did about an hours worth of honing. Off the rock the razor refused to cut arm hair again. After stropping the edge is like lighting. HHT5 for most of the blade (the toe is at a 4). The stone has taken a glass like polish and feels like my arky when honing. No idea what the shave will be like but I'll get to test it later.
The burnish after that 3rd razor is mirror like. It's even reflecting colour. I need to do full shave tests to see what the rock puts on the edge but so far the burnished finish looks slow but very promising. My worry is that edge doesn't feel like a coticule edge.
Attachment 233799
Nice, yes it has the wood grain look like mine. Also, I keep looking at the slate on the back- it has beveled edges and an 'ink blot' pattern. I've read its not recommended for razors, but, dang it I have to try just to satisfy my curiosity. I'm going to the beach for a week in May and this stone is coming with. I mean, need something fun to do before the Lady gets up...
Attachment 233901Attachment 233903
the slate side is exceedingly smooth to the touch and makes a white slurry. Haven't tried it on razor yet but I will. The mottled pattern on the slate matches the slate on the slurry stone that came with it, and the coti side has red streak.
None of my coticules have a slate backing, but it is my impression that it is not of much use for honing. Please let us know how it works for you.
What's on the back of"My Coti,s" ? Tc
Older coticules, and some of the new ones, are backed with BBW (Big Beautiful ...just kidding! It's Belgian Blue Whetstone). That BBW can be naturally adjacent to the yellow coticule layer and is cut to leave those layers together. These are considered to be natural combination coticules. The majority of mine are of that type. I believe that both of "your" coticules are of that type. Certainly the thicker one is but I don't recall the other one.Quote:
Originally Posted by tcrideshd
Alternatively the BBW can be glued to the yellow coticule layer. The reason that the BBW is glued to, or left attached to, the coticule layer is that it provides strength or support to the relatively fragile coticule.
Many modern (recently mined) coticules are backed by slate. It is there for support only and is not considered to be of use for honing, but your results may vary.
Very good summary on bbw and coticule backing. I will add a lot of people would want a coticule backed with a bbw. Its nice to have a combination stone. This is why most combination coticules you buy directly from the mine or a place that does resales cost a lot more then the portugese slate backed coticules. A coticule found in the wild will most likely be backed with bbw. People tend to hold on to their recently purchased stones or they end up on ebay. Not in the wild.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Many before have tried to use that portugese slate for honing and didn't find any use for it. If I were you I would try it but you're not going to have any luck convincing the community that portugese slate is the next "one stone" solution.
BUMP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
So what happened?
I'm still learning it. And still getting different edges depending on how much polish I put into the rock.
It seems to function best when finished to the highest level I can get it to. And using a finished razor (12K). Then build the lightest slurry with the slate side of my rubbing stone or a glass block. Doing this the edge is pretty much always fantastic. It's still coming off the rock feeling like there is no edge, and after stropping it's going right up to a level of sharpness in the HHT 4 region. I have most of my razor rotation finished like this now so it's providing me with edges that I think are really nice. Soft edges that you can't feel on the skin, They don't shave to BBS without a 4th pass but on a 2-3 pass shave they provide a totally irritation free DFS. Slapping up my face with aftershave after a pat down with one of these edges and there is no sting unless you hit a weeper. All of my coticule edges have been finished like this at this time, After a few shaves and a few refreshes with crox these edges are getting better and better my Bismarck 7/8 is currently on a HHT 5 and the edge is so soft it's insane.
Using the coti side of the rubbing stone removes the polish of my stone finish and the combination of both veins is fast but inconsistent. I can only assume that there is some coticule voodoo working there. Perhaps the garnet sizes and rock hardness differences and working against each other. My rubbing stone is defiantly softer and from another vein. The edges with the combination slurry are still there but depending on the razor I get some nice edges that feel sharp, and others that just don't feel right at all. Hence I don't use the combination slurry now. Getting that buttery feeling is just not happening for me with this method. The edges all feel sharp but not as good as a thuri edge.
Using a diamond plate (1K) to raise slurry I find that I have to work the stone a lot longer on the thinning stages. There is a point with this method where the slurry is gone, but the edge isn't quite there. Adding more slurry with the diamond plate puts you right back at that point and to get past it takes a lot of strokes removing very little to get that sticky feeling. Once you get to that stage the edges are good but sometimes inconsistent. The extra time on the hone and the fact I'm using a razor to add polish to the rock is probably the fault. I had one razor like this that felt like it had 2 edges. The heel felt buttery sharp, the toe felt regular sharp! Others have come off with an edge that feels like the Neutral block edge all over. Other edges have come away feeling like a regular sharp edge with no buttery feeling. The extra time to hone and the inconsistency is why I don't do this one any more.
I've tried to use the stone from a 1K, 5K, 8K, and 12K finish. The best results for me have all come from a 12K finished razor using the neutral block slurry on a rock that is well polished. When I try to use my stone for anything lower than 8K I find it'll work provided the slurry is there, but getting it to drive past that stage where the slurry has died and you want the edge to come in all sticky just takes far too long and allows the stone to be inconsistent. As such I'm using my rock is a finishing only coti. I've not tried a touch up with it yet on a razor that has been shaving and needs a refresh. I may find I have to take it back to 5K then through to 12K again as it may not have the cutting power to refresh without the minor reset. Every razor that has been finished like this seems to be getting better with use. So perhaps I need more Crox from the off to see if I can make an edge perform as well from the start.
I'm sure in 6 months time It'll all be different again! For the minute I like my polished coti a lot.
Interesting read Iceni. A lot of data collection there. Do you have a lot of razors or are you just honing these three very often?
I have 10 or so decent blades, and 5 RSO's that will shave. Most of the testing was done on RSO's. And with those blade I'll happily reset to 1K after every test shave. A couple of them have flat ground spines as well so I have a bigger visual on polish. Ugly but functional items.
I tend to focus on something for a full day at a time rather than little bits here and there. And that plays well when you are testing multiple things out. The only problem tends to be finding enough face for the razors! I've spent a few days on the rock since I got it in April. Shaves have been staggered out after a hone day so I can see what has worked and what hasn't. I'm still learning new stuff about how it works and feels every time I touch it.
I think my hone is a bit of a freak TBF to it. It's a great rock, but it's not at all what I would have expected a coti to act like.
But at that point you are shaving with a chromium oxide finished edge, not a coticule edge. That being said, they are both comfortable in their own regards, in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
I sincerely doubt there is any voodoo going on. Also, as far as I know, the hardness of a coticule has little to no influence on its performance. I'll get back to the inconsistency thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
You keep mentioning the inconsistency of the stone, which I find a bit strange. You try a plethora of things that include loads of variables. Your methods give you varying results. Your only constant is the coticule you use. One stone. There is not much variation in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
I do not think the stone is inconsistent; most likely, it is you. I intend this as constructive criticism, just to be clear. This is a large part of the fun in the learning process of honing on a coticule. It's not so much about the stone as it is about you.
You probably will. Every time I invest a bit of time in one of my few coticules I find small new nuances. In my approach, that is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
It takes a bit of figuring out how to use it to its full potential, which takes you in odd directions at times and surprises you when you think you figured it out? Sounds like a regular coticule to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceni
May you enjoy it in good health for many years to come.
I can't agree fully with that. The edge is still buttery smooth after several crox refreshes. I've never had the same sensation on the skin with any of my other finishers. Even after multiple refreshes. While I agree the polish is no longer a coticule polish at that stage, whatever a coti does to give that almost round bar like feeling on the skin is still very much in play. Perhaps if I continue to use a pasted stop for a time then this will level out into an edge that would resemble any edge that has seen a lot of Crox on a strop. It's just not at that point, perhaps it'll get to a stage where crox become ineffective and the razor needs a re-hone. I can't say ATM because I'm not there, It'll take a quite a few shaves only using one razor to hit that limit.Quote:
But at that point you are shaving with a chromium oxide finished edge, not a coticule edge. That being said, they are both comfortable in their own regards, in my opinion.
Anything I can't explain gets credited as voodoo. To be using a method numerous times, seated, on different razors, and not getting results on any when using 1 method. That tells me there is something amis. I'm certainly not done testing the coticule side of my rubbing stone. It's just not working on my hone atm. I may go so far as to contact Ardennes Coticule and have a selection of rubbing stones from various veins shipped. My own rubbing stone has colour change in it going to purple and at one end that change is pretty close to the face, so it could well be that my rubbing stone is producing a slurry closer to a BBW slurry. When I use something neutral like the glass block those problems vanish. When I raise similar thickness slurries, 1 neutral, 1 with the rubbing stone. The rubbing stone slurry is far faster at removing metal, The problem is my hone seems to struggle to finish an edge to buttery when I've use this method. I've not ruled out user error, I am more that aware it may be me. And I don't live locally to another honer to have them try it out, ATM this isn't a problem as other solutions have paid off.Quote:
I sincerely doubt there is any voodoo going on. Also, as far as I know, the hardness of a coticule has little to no influence on its performance. I'll get back to the inconsistency thing.
I'm also not struggling with my honing. My flailing post may make it appear that way. I get good edges that are on par with blades I've sent out, and because I only have a small collection I know what each razor I own is capable of. Your man there asked how I was getting on with this rock. And rather than just post a basic reply I figured he might actually want to know what wasn't working as well as what was. It's easy to say you've been getting good edges with method X, It's much harder to say this wasn't working and to explain why a sharp shaving edge didn't feel right even if it was capable of shaving. Coticule is even harder because the sharpness is overruled a little by the buttery factor.
And it's my bad grammar making the stone out to be inconsistent, It 100% the edges. The stone in all instances felt pretty much the same once polished past the gravel phase, the edges that came off with the different methods most certainly were not. If I've read something works then I'm not the sort of person to test it once but if something fails then I want to know why. And if I can't answer that then I have to look at myself, take a few days, shave with something else or test another one from the same batch and see if the problem is with all the edges from that batch. And if it is then I have to look at that and think about how to improve on what I have or re-test the same situation on a fresh honing day. The goal in all instances is to be able to create the edge that works every time and feels right, and to do that you have to be aware of what didn't work and what to avoid doing.
And thank you for the criticism. It's made me look back on some of the things I've tested, and some of the things that need to be added to the pipework. And reminded me that when posting I flail, a lot, and often manage to miss key elements that I was thinking and failed to express or express poorly.
Finally, I'm very happy with my hone. I know it might sound like a lot hasn't worked with it. And it's true it hasn't been a smooth transition from simple solution hones like thuri's and N12K's. My every day razors are all finished on it ATM. And I can't see that changing in the near future because the edges I've been getting are fantastic. And I can only see them getting better. It's just taken a lot of playing to find a near dial-able solution.
