Shapton Pro grit progressions

Hello all, I've been looking around for a good set of stones to take a razor from needing a new bevel to shave ready and have found a place with reasonable prices for the Shapton Pro series of stones. I've found a combo deal where I can get either of the following options for the same price:

1. 1000, 5000, 8000 Grit
2. 1000, 5000, 12000 Grit
3. 2000, 5000, 8000 Grit
4. 2000, 5000, 12000 Grit

The simplest progression I've seen is a 1K for setting bevels, then 4K and 8K for honing, which indicates the first option would be the best, or at least closest. But then my research also indicates that the Shaptons are rather aggressive, that 2K or 1K5 would be a better choice than 1K for rebevelling.

Then to compound matters, on the other end of the scale, is it possible to jump from the 5K straight to the 12K without spending an absurd amount of time on the 12K? Cost is somewhat a concern here and I'd prefer to stick to just one of those options for now.

Any opinions on which set to choose would be greatly appreciated!

I'd probably do 2,5, and 8. I've also read that these are quite fast hones, and the 2k is perfect for setting a bevel. If you want to be able to move rapidly from hone to hone, you don't want too large a gap in grit, and you should be able to shave off the 8k comfortably. If you can't that's a sign your razor needs more work before moving on.

I would get that set, and worry about something beyond 8k later, when I'm getting smooth shaves off that.

Ideally, "combo 5" would be best.

1k, 2k, 5k, 12k.

You CAN set a bevel on the 2k, but for some razors you really are going to want the greater speed of the 1k with its grit that is twice as large as the 2k.

What are you planning to do with razors, complete restoration or maintenance?

The difference between 1k and 2k is not much, but if you plan on doing restoration work where you will be setting a bevel from a bread-knife edge, the 1k, or even lower will come in handy.

The preferred progression is 1,4,8 & 12K, but any of the combinations you described will work, and if you add some Chrome Oxide stropping, the end results will be about the same.

If you are new to honing a smaller jump progression will make your learning curve a bit easier. 95 percent of honing is setting the bevel, then the largest hurdle becomes removing the deep bevel set stria, with the transition stone, were you transition from grinding to polishing. The rest is just polishing.

I would go with the 1, 5, 8k and add the 12 or 16k later. That would give you the largest range.

Shapton’s are aggressive as are quality synthetic stones. If you are starting out and money is the issue look at the Naniwa or Norton stones.

I have the 2000, 5000, and 8000 thpugh the 8k is a HC Glass Stone. I follow it up with a JNat.

The 2k is a fine bevel setter and my default. It's fast and produces a similar scratch pattern to other brands 1k.

I do not know by trial but suspect 5k to 12k with Shaptons is very doable, the stones cut very well even with light pressure.

Cheers, Steve

I'll tell you my experience, as I had a full set of those at one time. The 1k I had was very rough/aggressive. I bought a 2k to go to afterwards to smooth it out, and felt it would have been a better option to begin with, even if it took a bit longer to set the bevel.

The Japanese grit chart is different than the USA. So according to their micron measure a 5k is like a USA 8k and an 8k like a USA 10 or 12k. I don't know how relevant this is, Euclid or Utopian, being more scientific/mathematically minded, could probably comment on it.

Grit chart PDF ............ http://straightrazorpalace.com/advan...tml#post446896

Anyway, I'd probably go with the 2-5-8 since Shapton pros don't have a 4 last time I looked.

The 1k FEELS rough and aggressive, but it does not cut steel in that manner. Yes the 2k feels much smoother but it is also proportionately a much slower bevel setter in comparison to the 1k.

Shapton recommends a doubling of each grit number in a progression. We follow that in the higher grits but blindly ignore it in the lower and more critical lower grits. Norton made a 1k, 4k, 8k so that is what we recite too often on the forum. It works, but I still believe the 1k, 2k,...progression is a better start.

Thanks all for the advice so far!

Euclid, I'm probably going to be doing more maintenance than anything else, but I'm also looking at eventually making a couple of razors myself, but that won't be for a while. Thanks for the pointers on the other options, unfortunately when I last checked, international shipping meant that a set of Naniwas from SRD ended up costing the same as an equivalent set of Shaptons, and the Norton 3 piece set (220/1K and 4K/8K) was the same price as the set I described above!

Jimmy, greatly appreciate the link, makes for some very interesting reading.

Why the Pro's ???

They honestly don't have that good of a reputation with SR's

Yup, a lot depend on what you plan to do, and how aggressive a bevel setter you will need.

Shapton grit rating is a bit different than other synthetics, but as long as you stay with a Shapton line up, you will be fine. The difference is in the Micron to Grit conversion.

Shapton are maybe a little more aggressive that other synthetics, but really not enough to make a large difference in performance. Certainly nothing a few extra laps on other stones won’t remedy.

All those bundle sets are for tools/knives and always a bit lacking for razors.

Here is a good Shapton lineup chart, from Jende, for the Glass series, but the grits still apply. The razor recommendation is for Japanese carbon steel razors only. I have attached a link for easier reading, here. There is another good chart of the Pro series as well as the Japanese not for export versions, but I can’t find it at the moment, I will post it if I find it.

Here is also a good write up from the Jende site on the Shapton stones for the WEPS and below another good chart on grit rating between Edge Pro, Chosera and Shapton and the link.

Really you could go either way and add stones as needed, either, 1k or 12 or 16K. I the price is right, the discount would offset the cost of the extra stone.

I use a variety of stones from different manufactures in my progressions and don’t go so much for grit rating, as much as performance on the steel.

For me, the Bevel setter, the Transition stone and the Finisher are the key stones, the rest don’t matter much.

Attachment 234799

Attachment 234800

I use 1k Chosera for bevel set followed by the 5k and 8k Shapton Pro. That is my progression for anything other than kamisori , it works great for me.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Why the Pro's ???

They honestly don't have that good of a reputation with SR's

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This is news to me, the worst I've read is that they're more aggressive than some others, as people have noted in the thread. Could you please elaborate on what makes them worse (or the Naniwas better)?

Thanks again Euclid, the additional info is greatly appreciated.

In case anyone's curious, I ended up not going for the Shapton Pros for the simple reason that I found a place closing down that had the glass stones on sale for cheaper. Have ordered a 2K, 4K, 8K and 16K + shipping for a total of 355 AUD (that's 275 USD for you Yanks). More than I planned to spend, but I just couldn't pass up the 16K for only 127 AUD.

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Originally Posted by Blank

This is news to me, the worst I've read is that they're more aggressive than some others, as people have noted in the thread. Could you please elaborate on what makes them worse (or the Naniwas better)?

Thanks again Euclid, the additional info is greatly appreciated.

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They tend to leave a harsh feeling edge... It really is that simple

There is nothing that says you can't re-adjust for it, but you have to re-adjust for it :)

I think you will be much happier with the GS series that you bought, and even that 16k might be a bit much for some razors you come across...

You did make a good solid decision. Norton 1K/220 is a harsh water soaking hog that can never get its fill. You end up re-wetting your 1K side every 10 laps or so. The 220 grit side to re-quote Utopian is a sloppy muddy mess that is not suitable for razors, not verbatim but you get the idea.
Congrats and let us know how those hones work for you.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

They tend to leave a harsh feeling edge... It really is that simple

There is nothing that says you can't re-adjust for it, but you have to re-adjust for it :)

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Interesting. I assumed by the time you got to a higher grit like a 10K or 12K it would be reasonably smooth. I assume one could also switch to a less harsh finisher like a Naniwa 10 or 12K?

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Shapton recommends a doubling of each grit number in a progression. We follow that in the higher grits but blindly ignore it in the lower and more critical lower grits. Norton made a 1k, 4k, 8k so that is what we recite too often on the forum. It works, but I still believe the 1k, 2k,...progression is a better start.

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I tend to agree, and I can't shake the feeling there should be something between the 1K and 4K. But at the same time, Norton's 4k isn't just meant to polish it's designed to cut as well. At least that's how it's advertised and appears to perform, so it doesn't feel like such a large leap. I'm not really sure what brand of hone I'd choose to work in there if I did opt for a 2K though.

At any rate, that's why I originally suggested 2/5/8. If he felt the 2k was too slow for his purposes he could always step down and get a 1K. And of course when the time came he'd be able to bounce up to any finisher he likes. In retrospect I do like the 1/2/5/12 selection a little better though. Skipping the 8 doesn't seem like too huge a leap.

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Originally Posted by ultrasoundguy2003

You did make a good solid decision. Norton 1K/220 is a harsh water soaking hog that can never get its fill. You end up re-wetting your 1K side every 10 laps or so. The 220 grit side to re-quote Utopian is a sloppy muddy mess that is not suitable for razors, not verbatim but you get the idea.
Congrats and let us know how those hones work for you.

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The solution to it drying out too fast is to change your honing method (and keep a spray bottle handy). I gave up on the pull stroke, flip blade, push stroke, flip blade, repeat method when I started using naturals. Too slow. Using strokes like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAcsGnajQyQ

Makes all the difference with naturals and thirsty hones that don't stay suitably wet for long. It goes without saying the 220 is too coarse for normal use. I only hit a razor with that if I have a flat 90 degree wall where the bevel should be, and I stop just before the bevel meets and finish the set on the 1k. It is messy, but it doesn't seem much more so than the Chosera 1K.

So as the guy here that has used the Pro line exclusively for the past 5 years, I always say, if you are new, get the Glassstones.

The harsh feeling comes from their deep cutting ability which has been a blessing for me considering all the edge rebuilds I do but.... the fact remains your are working with a ceramic stone that is not far removed from using a DMT plate.
As Glen says you can "adjust" for it but it does make for a steep learning curve. If you use Shap Pros on hard vintage steels they work great. On softer steels you will always be chasing burrs. I can shave off the 12k pro but it is not ideal in comfort. A little CrO stropping brings it to within 2-5% of a Jnat etc. However that small %ge is exponential in the comfort stakes.

I almost always finish with Jnats sometimes a Gok 20 k. The Jnats do a great job of "healing" the "restorative" cutting power of the Pros but that does add extra time.

The ideal stone for razors is one that cuts well but not deep. Jnats can be that way but few synthetics are. The Chocera comes to mind as a stone that fits those parameters. There are others that come close & I think you will love the GS's.

I use the 5 and 8k Shapton pro and do not have any issues with them on any razor. I follow with 10k Super stone and 20k Suehiro so I have no experience with the 12k edge. I find that very light touch is needed to achieve that very even fine finish, may be that is the adjustment Glen is talking about?

I have a similar setup to Oz and Stefan, Shapton Pro 2k bevel setter, followed by the 5k Pro, and I'm trying out the grey HC 8k Glass Stone. I also finish on JNats and I can substitute a koma slurry for the 8k (the koma actually seems finer).

Cheers, Steve

The 1k pro is the workhorse & can restore & set a deeply chipped bevel in 5-6 minutes on a hollow grind but it cuts deep & a 1.5k &/or 2k progression makes life much easier for the 5k & the honer :)
The light touch, as Stefan calls it, is what you learn using the pros on on razors. I always cringe when I see people talk about "pressure" when honing. Pressure just gouges your razor with the Pros.

JimmyHAD graciously loaned me his entire set of Shapton Pros to play with several years ago. I liked the set a lot but did not prefer it overall in comparison to the Naniwa SuperStones. However, I very much preferred the "deep cutting ability" of the Shapton Pro 1k and chose it as my goto bevel setter. I very much liked the aggressive nature of that hone in comparison to the SuperStone 1k, which I felt was too soft for a bevel setter. For that reason, my normal routine for a few years was to use the Shapton Pro 1k as a bevel setter, followed by the SuperStone 1k to "prep" the blade for progression up the rest of the SuperStone line. Because I was so happy with the Shapton Pro 1k, I put off buying the Chosera 1k for several years despite so many people praising it. I frequently used the Chosera 400, 600, and 800 for repair work but felt no need for the 1k because I was so happy with the Shapton Pro 1k. I eventually got the Chosera 1k simple to understand what everybody else was talking about, and it works great; but I'm still happy with my Shapton Pro 1k, and 1.5k, and 2k. They all make for a great bevel set.

To the OP , just to put it out there. All the top honers have given their advise. What you want is repeatability and reproducibility in results consistently.
Your purchase does that.

You dont want to start out doing a bunch of work around coat hanger and duct tape solutions to a great edge.

Your purchase and application of the characteristics of this system will suit you very well.
Remember there is a learning curve, and you just greatly reduced it with your question here.
You may want to bookmark this and refer to it often as you hone. There are words and explanations, and then there is the depth of pro honers use that you have just received.
Tems such as deep scratches, light touch are all subjective based on comparing to other hone systems. So test , hone and test, unlock your new hones and enjoy.
Honing is supposed to be enjoyable. The members who have given their advise have helped me get the most from my set-up and I look forward to their advise in the future on how to maximise results. Good for you. OP.

Thank you all for the information, there's been a lot more of it than I expected! Ultrasoundguy I've definitely marked this thread, lots of great info in here.

I think my next purchase will be a good loupe, I've got a 10x but I think I'm going to need better to see the scratch patterns from the higher grit stones.

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Originally Posted by Blank

I think my next purchase will be a good loupe, I've got a 10x but I think I'm going to need better to see the scratch patterns from the higher grit stones.

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If it's quality optics all you need is 8-10x & a suitable light source. Sunlight is the best.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

If it's quality optics all you need is 8-10x & a suitable light source. Sunlight is the best.

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Yeah I honed on the porch today. Great optics. I had to stop when the sun sat.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

If it's quality optics all you need is 8-10x & a suitable light source. Sunlight is the best.

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Cheers Onimaru, will hold off on the loupe then and see how things go with my current one first.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

Why the Pro's ???

They honestly don't have that good of a reputation with SR's

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Why is that? Do people like the Naniwa Super Stones better? I am looking at a 2k, 5k and 8k in either brand so looking for some comments.

One can learn how to make use of either line, but the SuperStones, now called Specialty, seem to be a little more forgiving and therefore easier to use.