I was wondering if this finisher could be used dry like a barber's hone.
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I was wondering if this finisher could be used dry like a barber's hone.
I know that some people have used escher stones with oil but I don't know if it hinders the performance or not. I personally wouldn't use it with anything other than water.
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Sure you can use it without water. Or you can use water or better yet slurry diluted down with water when finishing. Don't deprive yourself or your edge. :o
MIke
Printed on all Escher, and Thuringan stone labels is to "keep free of oil or grease." Never use oil on a Thuringan or an Escher (same thing really) Coticules are fine for oil or water, Charnely stones, Arkansas, some others.Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron1234
The purpose, as I understand it, of water on the stone, or oil on those that are appropriate, is as a vehicle to carry bits of steel that are cut off of the blade. While a few strokes at the end of the finishing, when the water/oil is dried about up won't matter, if an Escher, or whatever is used dry for extended honing you risk loading the stone with swarf (bits of metal) and glazing it over, making it useless.
A barber hone is made to be used either way. The binder, and the construction of the hone will make it go longer before it needs to be cleaned, but even a barber hone will be affected by continual dry honing. That stuff has to go somewhere. IMHO.
Thanks for the information, I got my first Escher a few days ago and I'm learning to use this powerful stone as a final finisher.
If you want to see what it would be like to hone with oil, get some Smith's honing solution. It works like oil but is water soluble so easily is removed from the hone. Also, by diluting it with water you can vary its viscosity.
Welcome to SRP. I've fooled with a lot of Eschers over the years. Still have two that I use not infrequently. When I got my first one I asked a couple of the big guns if they used slurry and they said they didn't. One said he saw no advantage in 'dragging the razor through mud.' I figured that if the label said to 'use the rubber till you create a lather' there was a reason for it. So that is what I began to do. I also adhered to the admonition to avoid oil or grease. :angel:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomac42777
Attachment 236505
There are stones which profitate from the usage of oil or other solutions to buffer the contact to the stone (Smiths, Water Glyzerine, other oil types)....
Iam sure there is no real profit using a thuringian Stone with oil or even any other solution, so why doing it ?
I agree. I just wanted to give him a way to try it without harming the stone.
I thought it may work ok dry only making 20 passes and cleaning with water immeadiatly after. I dont feel comfortable lapping this stone with the possibility of it lossing its silky smoothness and becomming coarse. As far as oil goes, I only use it on a white translucent arkansas and it works well with that stone. Most of my stones are water stones and they work well with water only and lapping them has been achieved with a atoma 400 diamond plate
I have lapped many thuringians and never had a problem with them losing any smoothness from it.
Thuringians are "SMOOTHNESS" in person, undependent how much you lap away ;-)
Well as others already said, it doesn't make sense to use a thuringian dry, without water. The water on the surface and in the pores of the stone matrix prevent that small metal particles move into the pores and cause blockage. If the pores are mainly blocked by metal particles or also the slurry of the stone, the blade is slippering over the stone without having permanent contact to the surface and abrasive material. Also oil is not a good idea on a thuringian. The oil moves into the pores and stays there together with the metal particles, that are removed from the blade. So the surface is getting stump.
Using slurry or not on a thuri belongs to personal preference. I have talked with a lot of old hollow grinders in the past years about how to use thuringian and other hones. None of them has ever used slurry on a thuringian waterhone. I am also sure that even in the early days, the only challenge of the slurry stone that was added to the thuringian hones was to clean and reactivate the hone surface and not to produce a slurry.
Also for that purpose the old grinders never used thuringian slurry stones. The traditional material for cleaning and refreshing a natural hone surface was a pumice stone, natural or artificial.
I have a couple of old S.R Droesher, yellow/green fine, Thüringen hones glued to a wood base with a leather strop on the bottom side. Like the one below.
Using a lot of water would wet the strop, so I suspect they were intended to be used dry, with shaving cream or just enough water to wet the face.
S.R Droesher was a distributor for Escher stones and some SRD stones had both names on the label.
Attachment 236580Attachment 236581
The barbers I knew up in North NJ, back in the 'i80s, all used lather on their hones. They were using coticules, but all used the lather from the 'Lather King' machines.
I actually like to hand hone on my Escher so that the last few strokes are on a drying hone. One of those "works for me" things I guess...but then I like a very light slurry too.
I think that this Escher hone is best to use with a little water, it should be keep clean and lapped if needed. Over honing can occur if too many strokes are used on this hone. I think a razor that has not passed a 8k stone has no business on it, furthermore a dull razor will mess it up quick. I appreciate everyone's input, I have a lot to learn but i can say the 2 years I've been using a straight razor has been a great experience, and I will never go back to the boring old disposables. Collecting razors,hones and strops is a passion and a bit addictive.
I bought an Escher from an estate and it was severely bowed. I lapped it with a 300 diamond plate then with the opposite side of 1000 which really made it very smooth. I have played with it with a slurry progression and more recently under running water. I found the last procedure the best and with the least amount of strokes. It really gives it a great edge and a very smooth shave. In the case of the Escher, less is better. My Ark takes a lot more laps to achieve a smooth edge.
Interesting, several of us have tried to overhone on Escher...and failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomac42777
Can agree on that, it Never happened to me to overhone with one, but sure it might be the best way to stop when youre ready and not proceeding additionally 100 strokes if those are not really needed...Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGoodman
I know that with a Thuringer stone, they will glaze eventually and lose effectiveness.
But aside that,
Has anyone actually honed on a thuringer/escher dry and if so what were the shave results?
I was told from two guys i know that this works.Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanLudlow
but i believe even if this might be a way to go the results are better when water is used.
[QUOTE=Euclid440;1631620]I have a couple of old S.R Droesher, yellow/green fine, Thüringen hones glued to a wood base with a leather strop on the bottom side. Like the one below.
Using a lot of water would wet the strop, so I suspect they were intended to be used dry, with shaving cream or just enough water to wet the face.
S.R Droesher was a distributor for Escher stones and some SRD stones had both names on the label.
Attachment 236580/QUOTE]
HAHA, that is funny stuff, you are the one who purchased my SRD I sold several years ago. That is my photo even, and my thumb ring. :) Seems like it only sold for about $40 on Ebay. I should have sold it for more. :) No big deal, I only paid $5 for it. If I had half the vintage stones I sold over the years I could brick my house with them.
I am curious why anyone would hone on a dry stone. The Eschers are hard enough to find and when you do they are expensive. Honing dry would put a lot of wear on both the stone and the razor. When particles come off the stone there is no way it can be good for the blade. I don't dry hone on my Jnat or water stones for just this reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHAD
I remember seeing that and for about two weeks couldn't figure out what the heck the "rubber" was??? Figured there must be some "rubber" component I was missing....searched eBay for hours for an Escher "rubber"...no joy.
Until it finally dawned on me, the little "slurry stone", was in fact the "rubber"....:gaah:
Figured the translation to English must have suffered...really!?!
Calling the small slurry stone, "the rubber", like, "...the little rock you rub the big stone with to create slurry...you know...the rubber thingy!!"
"What rubber thingy? Nothing here is made of "rubber", WTF are you talking about!?!"
"The little slurry stone....that rubber thingy!"
"Oh yeah...OK....that rubber!!!"
Ohhh...and I always use water on mine...and use the rubber thingy sometimes to create a bit of light slurry.
I do and prefer it on my Coticules howeverQuote:
Originally Posted by jkatzman
I've been experimenting with Cotis for a long time now, and contrary to what everybody says and what I read everywhere I get the best results with dry honing on my Coticules.
It's what I do and which gives ME the best results. What anybody says about it doesn't concern me, since to each their own, trial and error have led me to dry honing and I will continue to do so.
The 'extreme' smoothness of a Coticule is there but the sharpness is significantly higher when I hone dry versus on water. Just sayin' since you were curious
Also, after doing over a thousand laps or so the coti's surface became pretty darkened, a rub up and down on the coti with the slurry stone immediately cleaned it entirely
Whatever you use it with dry or wet, in modern times i can assure you its nearly impossible today to get one of those stones that used that nothing is left from it...sure this depends on usage but if youre not a well visited Barber still using straights today or one whos honing razors for others the stone will hold a lifetime...Quote:
Originally Posted by jkatzman
Wouldn't lapping take care of most if not all particles that had been imbedded? Afterall, not using much pressure, one good lapping session to ensure the stone is flat would remove most of the layer that had been used and you would be on to fresh rock I would think....:shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by doorsch
Yes, there is that, lapping I am sure was not the obsession it is today.
Now, razors are finished to a much higher degree than they were then, prior to “finishing” on Eschers and Coticules, I would think. You don’t really need the rubber or the slurry.
Heck most are probably pre-finished higher than the natural itself.
Interesting, I find for me, refreshing first on the Nani 12k, then going to the Escher for the final edge is probably going backwards, but for me, that natural stone finish is just superb, nothing like it - especially on an old Sheffield....:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
This is my method that works with every quality razor I have ever encountered. I run my synthetics through a progression to the synthetic finisher of 16K or 20K, then finish on YG Escher. Super sharp, but still smooth. The edge is not too fragile. Win - Win!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
+1...Except I go to the natural after the 1-12K progression. This always produces my most preferred edge...Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottGoodman
OP's Question!Quote:
Originally Posted by TristanLudlow
Yes, for a quick touch up, dry is ok...at least that has been my experience. Doing a complete honing on a dry Thuringian may or may not be a good idea. The thing to be aware of is...that there be no loose grit or dirt on the stone. That is where the wet stone has an advantage.
Realize, this is just my opinion. Your blades may have a different one.
~Richard
Hey Mike - was going to even mention coticule first, then Escher, but figured you'd probably pop on and mention yourself....I have some stellar edges you've done that way.....:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfpack34
Hey Andrew! Yes... that is my preferred natural combo to finish blades (especially Sheffields). I use water only...first on a very hard and fine coticule and then on one of my Eschers. I love the edge this produces! Thanks...Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrank
