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Hi All
I new to straight razors love all the info on here.
I have been looking at Japanese natural stones and corticules as a maintaince stone. Japanese stones seems somewhat daunting. What natural stone would you recommend for a beginner that I can also use long term.
Emanuel
Have a look for a German Thüringer \ Thuringian hone. Some of the most regarded stones like the Eschers Barbers Delight are Thuringian.
There a really nice natural that can be had for reasonable money if you know what to look for. They give a smooth high polish finish, and can be used with or without a slurry.
There are countless threads on them, and the general forum abbreviation is "thuri" if you are wanting to search for threads.
Ebay will often have them listed, but very rarely as a Thuringian, Most of the time you have to search using broad keywords and narrow it down visually.
Coticule is also a good stone. It is perhaps harder to get to grips with than a thuri. Coticule is however more versitile in the lower grit areas, and you can do a 1 stone rotation on many of the available layers. The biggest problem with Coticule is not all stones are finishing stones. Some never seem to leave a fine enough polish. There are tricks to get more out of a rock that isn't performing, but it is still a gamble picking one up. There are a few places to get them and you can go directly to the miner at Ardennes Coticule if you want. I like my coticule very much.
Jnats, not a clue. Never had the urge for one. The system isn't just 1 stone. It's 1 base stone and a series of rubbing stones used to produce various slurry grades. The base stone is important because it determines the final finish, but so too are the rubbing stones.
I assume Perth to be the UK town. If so and you are new to shaving then the best stone for you would be the 8K naniwa superstone.
Naniwa Specialty Stone, SP-480, grit: 8000 | knivesandtools.co.uk
It'll leave a good edge, and because it's synthetic everyone who owns one can give you advice on how to use it.
A typical synthetic rotation is 1, 3-5, 8K. 12K+ can be added but is not needed. The 8K as a stand alone stone is perfectly capable of touching up a failing edge and leaving everything shave ready.
Mostly people buy natural finishing stones and a synthetic rotation together. On a dull razor they might use 1, 5, 8K super stones, then go to a finishing natural. This gives every advantage. Synthetics are fast, they always leave the same edge, And there easy to replace. Going from an 8K to a natural will leave an edge that feels like the natural stone so there is nothing to loose with this style of honing.
IF you want a coticule, get one from a reputable place.... don't expect to find out what vein it's from or if it's any good or not. The Vendor won't know. Picking up a used Coticule hone from one of our members *might* be a better bet... but rest assured, nobody sells a crappy coticule unless they have something better.
Having said the above... there are times when someone buys a coticule and just can't seem to figure it out, puts it up for sale (some times even cheap) and when you buy it, you figure it out and you have the best ever coticule for an absolute bargain price! It's not a "given" of course, it's *always* a crap shoot, and only YOU know what you are willing to risk.
As for Jnats... well, things are a bit better in that arena. There ARE trusted dealers of Jnats out there.... I know one, and his name is Garret. He is NOT the only trusted seller, but he is ONE of them. I can honestly send you his way and I would not worry in the least that he would steer you wrong or try to sell you something you don't need or want.
The whole realm of "Natural" hones involves rocks, dug out of the ground. No body knows if it's going to be a good rock or a bad rock..... Sometimes, that obvious bad rock isn't so bad after all, once someone figures it out... but it takes time and testing to do that. In Jnats, Gents such as Garret of http://japanese-whetstones.com can be relied on. Garret, as well as some other dealers out there, strive to make sure that what they sell meets the customers needs to a T. They will even offer to take back a stone that does not MEET your needs, if you find it does not suit you. It is this very reason they will take the time to figure out exactly what it is you need/want as they would prefer NOT to have a hone come back.
The fact that I might recommend a (lets say coticule for arguments sake) to you, doesn't mean anything... the coticule you might buy from vendor X might be as good as mine, might be better than mine or it might be useless. There is no way to tell..... my hone came out of the ground in Belgium, the rock turned hone next to it, may be better or worse than mine... nobody knows.
When it comes to Jnats, we are fortunate to have dealers such as Garret, who will stand by the hones he sells... If it doesn't do what he claims to you, he will take it back. You will not get this sort of guarantee from the usual Coticule dealers. Does this mean a coticule hone is crap? Nope.... it's just that the sellers won't back their sales up... and I don't blame them.
Natural hones are ALWAYS a crap shoot... most of the time, if you give the hone all your attention and try different things, it will work out. Sometimes it won't.... not often, but it does happen.
My personal recommendation is to stay with synthetic hones... Naniwa, Shapton and Suehiro Gokumyo are all fine choices. If you need help after procuring such a hone, there are countless members on this board who can give you instructions on how to further improve your edges. Naturals.... well, what works for one hone, won't necessarily work for the next, so you will be on your own.
I own 5 natural stones... each is very different from the next and when I first got them, they threw me for a loop.... after a few months or in one case over 5 years, I've got them figured out and I am super happy with the edges I get off them. To start, it's unreasonable to expect someone to endure 5 years or more of lousy shaves before figuring out a hone... better you have near perfect shaves for those 5 years and then decide to take the plunge into naturals in the search of something just a wee bit better.
Regards
Christian
Hi All
Iceni
I am Perth Australia
The thing I am starting to learn with Japanese natural stones is that the slurry stone is the workhorse
If I do buy a Japanese stone can I only buy one and use different slurry stones to change the way it sharpens the edge?
Is there a reason, you want to learn to hone, with natural stones?
As said, all natural stones will perform differently from each other, and this fact alone can add more variables to a new honer, learning what to look for and how the honing process works.
It is much easier to learn on synthetic stones, where stone performance is absolutely predictable.
If you intend to purchase JNats, find a reputable dealer and a local mentor to cut your learning curve and keep you from making needless purchases.
Hi Euclid440
I want have spend money on buying synthetic stones first I understand that the edge off a synthetic will always be quality.
All I will say s that if you don't have a bevel you're just polishing a dull edge.
Hi OCD
I am well away now if the bevel is not right then go back to square 1. I know that I will have use a 1k synethtic to set any bevel on a razor that the bevel is out of whack. OCD after using a 1k to set the bevel what natural stones would you use in the next progression?
Emanuel
Quote:
Originally Posted by erobins
erobins, I was cracking wise about the bevel issue. Although true, it's a fun little jab I like to sarcastically add to threads. In honest, I don't use naturals any longer. I finish on the Suehiro 20k and swear by it. Naturals are a crap shoot and there is little that can be said about them definitively. A hard base stone with a set of nagura will help. I suggest speaking to Japanesenaturalstones.com.
Sorry mate didn't get the wise crack I'm based in Perth Australia. Has anyone delt with corticule or JNS vendors that can provide guidance from Aus?
Once you hang out here for a while, you'll get my joke. I still recommend Japanese natural stones. You will get good advice there. Japanese stones are named and sold under the mine they came from. You can't be assured that what developed naturally in one formation was the same in another. Mothe nature is a quirky old broad.Quote:
Originally Posted by erobins
I'll have to agree with OCDshaver, a synthetic hone is an absolute "known". My Naniwa 12K and someone elses Naniwa 12K will be, for all intents and purposes, the same. Naturals are best left for fools like me who have countless hours and way too much money, to play with them, in an attempt to eak out the ultimate edge. Sometimes we win, sometimes we loose.
I would encourage both yourself and anyone else starting out to set yourselves up with a nice set of synthetic hones, and when you have figured them out and gotten every last bit of performance you can out of them, yet you think there's room for improvement, then by all means, you are ready to take the plunge in the wonderful wacky world of natural hones.
You want a solid foundation to compare against, and synthetic hones will give you that, reliably... I don't think synthetic hones are the ultimate, but then I don't own a Suehiro 20k or a Shapton 30K either..... yet.
Synthetic hones will give you a solid foundation. Many straight shavers are very happy with their synthetic hones and see no reason to progress to natural hones. Others, like myself, have this never ending desire to try new hones, in the hopes we may discover the *ultimate* hone, and yet... even if we do... there's always that (insert name of a horrendously expensive, exotic natural hone, you do not yet own, here) around the corner... just waiting to prove it's better or worse than what we have already.
It's not a path I'd wish for anyone else to take... I'm OK with it.... my eyes are open and I have found hones that give me a better edge than what I get from my synthetics alone, but I need those synthetics to prepare my blades for the natural hone. So start with a basic set, wring every last bit of performance out of them, and if you are still left wanting, and have the money, by all means, you are ready to branch out into the wild wonderful world of natural hones.... Only there is no guarantee you'll find something better.
Regards
Christian
Thanks Christian for your help. I totally understand the synthetic stone path that they are known quantities. Would anyone recommend first to buy one natural stone to maintain the edge before then buying a set? Has anyone bought from metalmasterjp on eBay
I've not bought from that vendor and in any case he seems to be low in stock. I've bought from Henry Eckert in Adelaide and many members of this forum also recommend Tools from Japan.
Both those vendors sell Shapton but TFJ can't get hold of the Glass Stones at the moment - Eckerts have a reasonable stock. TFJ sells the Naniwa and Chosera range as well. Many folks here have found the Naniwa 12k to be a good option for refreshing edges.
Thanks Maladroit
I take it you use synethtics?
Have you bought any natural stones?
If the manufacturer won't put their name on their product, I have to question the quality of said product.
A close friend, who was also a woodworking tool dealer, once answered my questions regarding the difference between an American made Delta bandsaw and a Taiwanese copy.
He simple said:
"This is a $900 American made Delta bandsaw, over here we have a $400 Taiwanese copy of that bandsaw. The $400 Taiwanese bandsaw is NOT a $900 American made Delta bandsaw, being sold for $400."
Buying an "unknown" synthetic hone off ebay is like buying a Natural hone... you have no idea what you are getting, until you try it.
If you are tight for funds, get a 10K or 12K Naniwa SS hone. It will suffice for keeping sharp razors, sharp, as long as the edge does not get damaged. Even a lowly vintage barbers hone would work, though personally I have not been that pleased with the two I have... They work, but only sort of.
The Naniwa SS hones are well known, as is the Norton 4K/8K hone and there is plenty of information on them here, as well as users of same, who can help you with any issues. While the price of the hone you are inquiring about *may* be somewhat lower, I have never heard of it before, and considering that a 10K Naniwa may not be all that much more expensive, I would go with a known product, even if I had to save a bit longer, rather than saving a few coins.
A Naniwa or any other good hone for that matter, will likely last you your entire life, unless you hone for $$$, in which case the cost of the hone becomes almost negligible, as it would be a reasonable expense in the course of such a business.
In the Naniwa SS range, a 3K, 8K and 12K or a 5K, 8K and 12K would make a nice 3 stone set. It will deal with anything short of a major repairs to a blade... The 3K will be better if you are having to hone out chips, but most Gents here would drop to a 1K hone for that. Some of us might choose to use a diamond hone, but it has the ability to do damage on it's own.... so it's best to tread carefully in that neck of the woods.
It will be interesting to see if anyone else has tried the hone you refer to, but my gut instinct is to say that a rubber stamp and some ink alone, does not a 10K hone make.
Regards
Christian
Hi Christian
Thank you for your help
I would never buy a unknown hone off eBay from a unrecognised dealer you might as well then flip a coin because it is a 50/50 chance what you are buying. What is the different between choosea and a normal naniwa hone?
I generally use Shapton Glass Stones (1,2,4,8,16K) but mostly finish on a Shapton Pro 12k. I do own some naturals and I've had good results with a Coticule and a black Arkansas. The so-called Chinese 12k stones are a real gamble and I can't recommend them to beginners - there are others who say they're great but the 2 examples I own aren't :hmmm:Quote:
Originally Posted by erobins
Ok, so you want a natural stone. Let's just accept that and find one for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by erobins
As stated, your three best choices are a coticule, jnat, or Thuringian.
Coticule:
Belgians | The Perfect Edge - write to Howard and tell him you just want a coti to maintain your edge.
http://www.ardennes-coticule.be/en/s...traight-razors - write to Maurice and tell him you want a coti to maintain your edge.
J-nat
Japan Tool - write to So Yamashita and tell him you want a jnat to maintain your razor. He is in Australia so shipping will be cheaper. I have bought from him and so have many others. He can be depended on.
Thurry
escher stone | eBay
Go to eBay and type in Escher or Thuringian. These days everyone calls Thuringians Eschers, cause it might make them more money.
If I were you (and wanted a natural stone to begin with -- which I wouldn't - I would do like the others have said and get a naniwa 12k, or naniwa combination 3/8k) I would buy a coticule from one of the two coti links above. As a fellow Australian welcome to the wonderful world of international postage charges, where you will often pay more for postage than the actual item.
And once you have it, if you are getting frustrated look here:
http://coticule.be/the-cafeteria/category/10.html
http://coticule.freeforums.net/threa...-coticule-edge
I've been really wanting to try some of that lately, could you send some over to me?Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
I'll add my vote for a coticule. If it's only for edge maintenance, it's not that hard really. Stone, water, some rubbing, no big deal.
Thank you decraew for your help. This is my logic. That a corticule I can use to maintain but further down the track to start from after bevel set to last progression. I would use razors just the tang to learn this process.
Welcome to SRP erobins. Some great advice already. If you really want to try natural stones have a go at a Thuri or Escher, although not that easy to find down under. Next would be Arkansas trans or black although they take a bit more prep, a little easier to find. If you take your time looking, they can be had for much less than the high end synths.
If you want a natural be prepared to be in for a long haul.
Especially if you want a coticule. I have a few .. haha few... myself and each is so different and not everyone I would consider ideal for one stone honing. There certainly are stones out there which are usable for one stone honing but at the same time there are others that are not.
What really helps if using a natural stone is to get a good bevel and refine it a bit on synthetics before going to the natural stone. This makes predictability much more attainable.
I'm not steering you away from coticules to synthetics I'm saying to be prepared to put in work and go through a lot of trial and error.
The end results of a one stone hone gone right on a coticule is heavenly. I'd argue you'll find no other stone that gives such a soft edge.
Good luck on your journey.
Hi s0litarys0ldier
Is there one particular mine or seller that you would suggest that could recommend for a corticule? I am well prepared to learn and it will be a life long learning process
Yes I would go directly from ardennes coticule or the straightrazorspecialist sells 150x40mm size for a good price. Can't go wrong with either.Quote:
Originally Posted by erobins
The other possibility is to purchase from a member who has used and tested coticules so more or less you know what you're getting into.
You are right it is a life long learning process that only gets better with time.
If you are going natural, Arks and Thüringen’s are the most consistent of the naturals, I recently coached a new honer to use a 3 stone Ark progression and he is very happy with the results. An Ark edge is a very different and nice edge to shave with.
Thüringen’s are the 12k superstone of natural stone, they just work, but you do have to have a good solid bevel set and a bit of polish doesn’t hurt.
Coticules and Jnats are the most difficult stone to master, because of the wide variety of stone performance and with Jnats, the few that are razor quality.
Coticules are just, all over the map, as I always say, (and I own several 6-8) some folks love them, but lovers never own just one, and why are they always for sale? You don’t see Escher and good Thüringen owners selling, or looking for a better one.
If you are going Jnat, find a Good Seller, (Read threads/reviews, on the one you mentioned, there are several, here and elsewhere), spend some time on the Jnat forum and contact some of the more active guys for recommendations, we have several good, vendors as members.
And the same for Coticules, and for both be prepared to spend some cash, you really do get what you pay for, with those two stones.
Good advice from a trusted source, will save you lots of money and frustration.
Yes, coticules do vary from rock to rock, but almost all of them can be used quite successfully for maintaining a razor quite well. The fact that they vary is no different from the variety among razors, and brushes, or soaps, or strops.
Almost all coticules work just fine for razors. They are not necessarily all viable for "one stone honing" for going from bevel setting to finishing, but almost all of them are capable of maintaining a razor's edge in perpetuity.
I agree with those who recommend starting synthetic. To throw another synthetic into the ring, that I don't think was recommended, the Norton 4/8 combo stone. I still think it is a great stone, and it is definitely consistent, and repeatable.
I think of what the great jazz saxophonist Charlie 'Yardbird' Parker is reputed to have said, "Master your instrument, then forget all that stuff and play." (yeah I know, he didn't say 'stuff')
Anyway, the illustration fits I think. Begin and learn with the known quantity, and when you become proficient with that branch out into the wide world of naturals. IMHO.
Set yourself up for success and learn to maintain with a know stone, but more importantly what difference does it make unless you learn to shave, so synthetics. Tc
I would have, except I was a fool and spent it all! :banghead:Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankenstein
Regards
Kaptain "Uhh... if anyone here has recently lost some weight..... I found it!" Zero
:OTThank you Kaptain for your sign offs, they always make me smile.Quote:
Originally Posted by kaptain_zero
Is the weight due to how many natural hones you have?
Emanuel a coti will give you the most versatility for light damage repair to finishing for a natural. A 3/8 naniwa would also be quite similar in results with much more reliability. That said unless you damage the edge any finishing stone will keep you shaving. If you decide on something give a yell and we can put an edge on your razor to try before you buy