Finishing hone best value, Coticule or other??

I have limited honing experience far as razors go. Been making steady progress but still a lot to learn. I am starting to want a finishing hone, I have Norton 220-1k, 4k-8k and then of course my strop. I have not went to pastes or Crox crayon. So I am wondering what is my next hone? I understand there is preference on my part but for the best value what would you fine folks recommend? I have been looking on line at Coticules and they seem fairly reasonable I spose but if you go that route are you better off to get the rectangle cut or just go with the (Bout) I believe it was called? I appreciate any insight and direction as always. Thank you for reading .

So, how are your edges now?

An 8K edge should provide a nice shave with linen and leather.

Much better with Chrome Oxide, about 10-15 bucks for a lifetime supply and a way more polished edge than a coticule and tons less learning curve.

Stick with a synthetic progression, the 12k Naniwa is a no-brainer super shaving edge. Few Naturals can compare with it.

Larger is always better.

Good to know so far I can get a shave edge with out discomfort was just kinda looking toward the next level is all. Plus I like sharpening stones :D I guess the only reason I have stayed away from Crox is because I don't want to buy another strop I know I can get a cheap paddle just haven't. Thanks for the info Euclid I appreciate it. :D

Look at it from my side. I bought a bout 8 and a naniwa 12k. Same price, but the naniwa is easily my favorite for 2 simple reasons. Precision and simplicity. No two coticules are the same and you have to learn their individual quirks, I have not perfected mine yet. The 12k takes a few laps to get a perfect edge, no slurry, running water or anything.

OTOH, coticules are fun because of the individuality and difficulty.


TL;DR buy a naniwa if price and ease are top priorities.

I guess mostly price is a priority if I spend gobbs of $ on a stone my next post might be for an apartment for rent ;) Thank you for the added info dinnermint. Just taking it all in and going to go from there :D

Yea, if you want another stone, the 12k Naniwa is the way to go.

You don’t need another strop for Chrome Oxide, a piece of cardboard, a 5 gallon, paint stir stick, any clean leather or cotton weave belt or a couple dollars, worth of nylon strapping from a fabric store.

Here are some photo of making a Polyester canvas strop, for about 10 bucks. It is great for paste and a yard of fabric, will make a boat load of strops. Yard of fabric, and 2, 2-inch D rings from Ace hardware and a roll of iron on fusing tape.

Naturals are a whole other kettle of fish, and learning curve.


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Another vote here for the 12k. Repeatable dependability. I would love to one day move to natural stones but I'm still a novice. A few laps in the 12k and I know I've for a finished edge. It's a bit of money up front but if your only touching up your razors it will last a lifetime. Hope that helps.

Phil

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That is great I now remember seeing your thread on this at one time. It seems like the 12k is a pretty strong runner and the strop idea is super. Thanks again for the helpful info.

You are 3.5 hours from my house, but only a half hour away from Mainaman's house. If you would like to try out some hones in person, all you need to do is ask.

^^^^ This right here makes this place awesome. I love the willingness to see others succeed

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Well that is a good point Utopian I honestly never thought of that. You are 100% correct Phil129 helping the community move forward is huge around this art/forum. I always get great help and info when I ask a question. :D

Obviously Mainaman is much closer to you and I can attest that he is very knowledgeable about all things related to honing and he is a lot nicer than I am. If at all possible you should try to arrange a time to meet with him. You will learn much faster in person and hands on with him.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

he is a lot nicer than I am..

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LOL, I can not attest to whom is nicer but when things slow up in the next couple weeks I will see about setting something up with him if he is down. I appreciate any help. In person would be much better I am sure of that, I have been doing well enough taking my time and going slow but actually having someone there to say no that is not right always helps. Thanks again Utopian, and thanks for the chuckle :rofl2:

It's always nice when guys like Utopian chime in with such offers... it is ALWAYS the best way to go, if you can. There is nothing like holding a hone in your hand, maybe have the owner take one of your razors for a spin on it, to show what it can do.

Besides all that.... bang for buck, hands down best finisher for the least amount of money would be the Naniwa 12K SS. Note that I said "For the money".... if you have oodles of money and time to throw away, by all means, buy one of each and 2 of all the good looking ones! :) But still start with the Naniwa.... I reach for it all the time, even if I plan to use another hone as a finisher.... once it's finished on the Naniwa, I know it's so close, it won't take much at all to tweak it with one of my natural hones.


Regards

Christian

yes captain for the money is what I was looking for, I wish I had oodles of $ sitting around but currently do not. And honestly I was looking at natural such as coti and synthetic and there really is not much $ difference. Now money to stone size there is difference for what I would spend on naniwa I will get a bigger stone than if I spent the same $ on coti. That is really why I was asking this question and all this advice pretty well points in one direction and has given me enough to think about and again the answer seems pretty logical :D Great advice from everyone thank you again.

IME buying the coticule is sort of iffy. I have 5 of them right now, many more have come and gone, and 3 of the 5 are damn good. The other 2 I'm not sure of. Is it me, or is it the stone ? Say that to say, you may get one that is just great, or you may get one like my 2 prodigals.

I have to agree with Euclid, and others who've recommended the Naniwa 12k. If you get that it is a guaranteed known quantity, and down the road, since you say you like hones, you can get all the coticules, thuris, and slates you'll ever need.

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Originally Posted by Utopian

Obviously Mainaman is much closer to you and I can attest that he is very knowledgeable about all things related to honing and he is a lot nicer than I am. If at all possible you should try to arrange a time to meet with him. You will learn much faster in person and hands on with him.

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12k naniwa, just because one purchase and it will work, maybe you get a Coticule you get along with, maybe not, use the synthetic toll you max out repeatable results then try some experimenting with the naturals.
As for Ron not being as nice as Stefan, ya I,ll agree to that !!!!! But don't worry Ron I still love ya man, I mean heck your the only Harvard bouncer I've ever met, plus he did loan me 4 of his hones. Tc

Another vote for the 12k. Have 3 cotis and only 2 I would call finishers. The 12k is much quicker and easier. Best to get a known performer and take chances once you have the time and money for it.

How comparable is CrOx on a strop, to the Naniwa 12k?
How about after honing on an 8k? (meaning 8k to CrOx, compared to 8k to 12k)

They are not really comparable.

This is an oversimplification, but think of CrOx as a polish and the 12k still as a fine abrasive. The 12k is fine but still readily can cut steel. In fact, with pressure it can be quite aggressive. On the other hand, the CrOx works more like a polish, though it can remove a very small amount of steel, which can have a greater affect right at the thin edge.

The CroOx can slightly convex the bevel, which can have an effect on the edge to re-sharpen it. The 12k can remove more steel from the entire bevels, and is capable of restoring a dull "U" shaped edge back to the more ideal "V" shape at the edge.

Basically the CroOx can serve as a means to lengthen the life of the edge between honings, while the 12k can accomplish that honing itself.

As far as 8k to each, CroOx can improve an 8k edge but the 12k can, in my opinion, do a better job after the 8k.

Thanks again for all the great responses I think the 12k is going to be a winner, and for a fun project I think I will make a crox strop next time I am near a fabric store :D you guys are a great help.

Thanks for the clarification.

Well, it depends…

Pastes are not hones, but if used correctly, in progression, can be and have been used in place of stones, for hundreds of years, to polish a bevel, depending on the paste.

Firstly, though, your results are totally dependent on your stropping skills. A pasted strop is an abrasive strops and it can add keenness and comfort, or if used improperly damage an edge, in one stroke.

The goal of honing, is to first shape the bevels into one flat plane, in the proper bevel angle, (spine to edge) and bring the bevels to meet at the edge, (a fully set bevel). At this point the edge is sharp and will cut hair, though the edge will be ragged and shave uncomfortably, because of the deep stria on the bevel.

The goal then is to straighten the edge, by reducing the height of the stria that terminate at the edge, in a series of ragged chips. The smoother/straighter you can get the edge the more comfortable the shave will be.

Finer stones, produce finer/shallower stria and a straighter edge.

As the edge gets thinner, it also is more susceptible to breakage, (micro chipping) so there is a limit, to how much metal can be remove at the edge with an aggressive stone and maintain a straight edge. That is about .50um/ 30K.

Here is where abrasive paste plays an affective roll, by polishing the bevel and edge, removing a minimal amount of material and still flattening the bevel and straightening the edge.

Chrome Oxide is about .50um about 30K grit equivalent. It can polish a bevel and edge, but result will vary depending on the finish of the bevel and edge at the time. For example, stropping on a 1k edge will have little effect in smoothing an edge for shaving, as opposed to stropping an 8k edge.

The substrate and amount of pressure will also affect results, as will the quality of the Chrome Oxide. For razors, make sure you are using Razor Quality, 100 percent Chromium Oxide, not hardware store or polishing compound. They are not pure Chrome Oxide and contain other abrasives, that can cut quickly and leave a harsh edge.

Chromium Oxide can improve an 8k or 12k edge, smoothing the bevel and edge, but is not the same as honing on a .50um/20-30k stone.

A 12k Naniwa stone is much finer cutting and will leave a shallower stria pattern, than an 8k, stropping with linen and leather it will provide a fine shaving edge. Stropping on Chrome Oxide it will deliver a finer shaving edge.

But, the 12k Naniwa is still or can be an aggressive stone and remove metal quickly, even removing substantial chips, though not recommended for such work. Here is an interesting thread, of doing just that with a Naniwa 12k. (12K Super Stone Chip Removal/Bevel Set).

So, it is not an, either or situation, but the three, 8k, 12k and Chromium Oxide do work well together in progression.

I love my Coti & that I only paid $3.00 for it makes it that much better. I don't have a 12K hone yet but I do have a 10K stone. I do like the Coti edge better than my 10K.
I would go for a 12 K hone in the short term & look for a deal on a Coti. Finish hone under running water with the Coti will make a big difference in the way any Coti works. Hit the antique shops, flea markets & even garage sales & look for all things shaving. That is how I have found ALL of my gear.

Slawman

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Originally Posted by Slawman

Hit the antique shops, flea markets & even garage sales & look for all things shaving.

Slawman

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That's how I came across my two cotis as well. Both this year - one at a barn sale, one at a flea market. But, they look very different from each other and behave differently so I am still learning them. I agree, always be looking for shaving stuff, ask people you meet and start that conversation, you never know when and where you will find stuff.

Is there a difference where the CrOx is applied?
Leather, linen, balsa wood?

Yes, the hardness of the substrate affects the cutting ability of the grit in the paste, just as does pressure.

So, Balsa will cut more aggressively than leather. Leather and nylon cut about the same, but on leather the paste sits on top of the leather, where in nylon the paste works into the weave and eventually some of the nylon is exposed and does some of the polishing.

I find on razors, I get a better polish if the surface is not completely covered in Chrome Oxide, but that the surface is a combination of paste and substrate, so that the paste, cuts and substrate polishes, much like polishing a car.

Wax on, wax off. I apply Chrome Oxide in ½ in.X 3 in X’s.

Balsa was popular a couple years ago, but new guys were trashing edges with balsa strops, too much pressure.

What you have to remember is a pasted strop is an abrasive strop, and a single stroke can ruin an edge. Watch you pressure.

I have a couple of balsa strops I made when I first got in to straight's & like many others used to much pressure. Stopped that before I damaged anything to bad.My thing with CROX is the CROX I have. I need to get some from SRD as it is high quality & is much better for the blade. Grit size is much more controlled in good CROX. I think I will get the paste.

Slawman

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Well, it depends…

Chromium Oxide can improve an 8k or 12k edge, smoothing the bevel and edge, but is not the same as honing on a .50um/20-30k stone.

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Can you expand on that?

Also, does anyone here use the red iron oxide at all?

Iron Oxide and Cerium Oxide both work well for a finer edge, Iron Oxide has been used for many years.

I have use both, for years, good Iron Oxide can be purchased inexpensively from Kremer Pigments. I don’t recall where I bought my Cerium Oxide years ago.

The last few years I have use CBN, in place of both, as you can get it in much finer grits that cut much faster.

A .125 or .25um CBN edge is very comfortable and can be stropped on daily, .125um is about 120K grit equivalent. You can go, as small as .10um/ 160k grit, which for me is too keen.

Yes, it is not just about grit size, Paste, polish and cut microscopically where a hone cuts much more aggressively.

If you use a SG20k/.50um stone to finish, you can still polish it further for comfort, with .50um Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN and get 3 different finishes.

If you do too many laps on the SG20 you can easily thin an edge so much, that the edge will fail and chip. The SG20 is a very aggressive stone.

So as above, even though all three are the same grit size, they will deliver much different finished edges. It’s not just grit size that makes the difference.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Stick with a synthetic progression, the 12k Naniwa is a no-brainer super shaving edge. Few Naturals can compare with it.

Larger is always better.

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I keep hearing this, but every time I use a Naniwa 12k edge, I know why I use other means. On my face, it is generally sharp but uncomfortable after the shave, a bit harsh on my skin. There are no absolutes in shaving.

So to the OP, if you are getting the Naniwa 12k anyway: very personally, I would recommend also getting that chromium oxide strop.

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

Iron Oxide and Cerium Oxide both work well for a finer edge, Iron Oxide has been used for many years.

I have use both, for years, good Iron Oxide can be purchased inexpensively from Kremer Pigments. I don’t recall where I bought my Cerium Oxide years ago.

The last few years I have use CBN, in place of both, as you can get it in much finer grits that cut much faster.

A .125 or .25um CBN edge is very comfortable and can be stropped on daily, .125um is about 120K grit equivalent. You can go, as small as .10um/ 160k grit, which for me is too keen.

Yes, it is not just about grit size, Paste, polish and cut microscopically where a hone cuts much more aggressively.

If you use a SG20k/.50um stone to finish, you can still polish it further for comfort, with .50um Chrome Oxide or .50um CBN and get 3 different finishes.

If you do too many laps on the SG20 you can easily thin an edge so much, that the edge will fail and chip. The SG20 is a very aggressive stone.

So as above, even though all three are the same grit size, they will deliver much different finished edges. It’s not just grit size that makes the difference.

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So you prefer the CBN over chrome oxide, iron oxide, or cerium oxide?

What do you recommend applying CBN (or cerium oxide) to? Polyester canvas? Or something else?

For me best finishing value for stone as a prise , easy to work with and an edge are the barber hones .
I bought a second one in a lot with a 5x2 natural combo coti I think that the coti was the star of the deal After reconditioned the barber hone i dont think so anymore .
For a good fine edge on the coty /and it was a very good one / were needed at least 30 minutes and skills .
The barber hone makes it for about 5 minutes - no skil;s and it makes even the hard rusian razors , usualy hard to hone , to shave like a Jnat finish
All in 20 strokes with water I will try it with lather the next time
I guess that the barber hones are very underestimated hones and for theyre value they got the first place , no doubt abbout it

Hi there

Is CBN the same as diamond paste?

If not what is the difference as a guy over here in Australia told me about CBN paste from japan being very good to maintain an edge*

Thank you

Emanuel

CBN paste is cubic boron nitride, so no, it is not the same as diamond paste. CBN is considered to be the second hardest substance, behind diamond.

Both are significantly harder than steel and so both are capable of abrading steel. CBN paste is claimed to produce an edge that is not as harsh as one produced by diamond paste, but of course that is going to depend on the person who uses them.

As I said earlier, any paste will perform differently depending on the substrate.

For CBN, the grit sizes are so small you have to ensure your substrate is free on any inherent grit.

It does work well on Fine weave nylon and linen that has been softened/conditioned. I use it on a paper/fabric, used in sewing to reinforce collars and other sewing application, called interfacing. The brand name is Pellon.

It is very inexpensive, a couple dollars a yard, easy to work with, very strong, can be wet repeatedly and dries quickly. I simply cut to 3 in width and attach 2 in D rings with iron on fusing tape.

Spray on the CBN and let dry, so it will adhere to the fabric.

CBN does work best wet, so I mist distilled water, then strop. The strop dries in a few minutes.

While CBN is second in hardness to diamond, it does not cut as deep and you have none of the abrasiveness that is commonly associated with Diamond sprays. CBN is not harsh at all, compared to diamonds. It comes in grits as small as, .10um, about 160,000 grit.

.50 and .125um are fine for daily use. After several uses, all stria will be removed from the bevel, and the shaves are very keen and smooth.

You can strop on CBN daily, with no down side and will not need leather.