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Don't read much on here about using natural novaculites like Washita and Soft Arkansas for setting bevels.
I don't do a lot of restores but I've had good luck with them following or instead of a DMT1200 EF. Almost never see any chipping like I sometimes do with synthetics.
Just curious if/why these two workhorses have been put out to pasture by the pros.
Most Arks are known as finishers these days. Bevel setting on a Chosera 1K is cake walk easy repeatable , reliable , solid , consistent.... Its like when Toyota started making a better car than the big 3. A properly set bevel never needs to be set again, similar to a foundation. Trans and Black Ark are great finishers in their own category.
Indeed. The higher grit range Arks are quite capable finishers. I think my Washitas and Soft Arks are in the 600-1000 grit range and I use them for the rough work on recent adoptions to get them in shape for a finishing progression.Quote:
Originally Posted by ultrasoundguy2003
I like the Arks for full hollows or older steels. The synthetics can be rough on them.
Yup, I agree. I have always been an Ark fan and have a 10X3 Washita that cuts like a demon. It is a great bevel setter.
I think a lot of guys pass on them because, they do vary in cutting ability some and it can be hit and miss building a progression.
I have been using Smith’s Honing solution with water, but recently “Steel” told me he’s been using Ballistol with good results. He said to cut it, 50/50 or 4/1 with water.
Think I’ll pull out the Washita and give the Ballistol a try.
I have been using a washita to set bevels for some time now and have had no problem at all. I will dress the stone making sure it is flat, clean, and fresh before use and it cuts amazingly. There are many others here "in the shadows" that also use it.
Ballistol oil is non toxic AND water soluble. The water soluble part makes it better, for me, than plain mineral oil. It works much better than glycerin in my experience at keeping my stones totally free from swarf build up. You can use it full strength or diluted if you get the liquid and not the spray.
Thanks. I have Ballistol. May give that a try. It's worked well for everything else that I've tried it on. Replaced Hoppes #9 as my cologne. :)
Love my Washitas. I think I'm up to 8 now. Just found another one buried in my MIL's garage while over there fixing their riding mower.
Hey, I hear you I buy them all the time at Garage Sales and Antique Flea Markets, often for a couple dollars. In addition to being great stones for tools and razors, they are some of the most beautiful stones, with marbling in a variety of colors.
Yes they are! Sometimes after a honing session I am amazed as I look at all the stones. The variety, color, and patterns. Then I shave with the razor I honed on them and am amazed again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
WD40 works great on my Trans ArkQuote:
Originally Posted by Euclid440
I have a No1 which I've used after the 1k with good results. Had to take a leap of faith the first time because it sounded like I was dragging s.th. along a gravel road...
I mixed some Ballistol with Smith's & it works oh so well on just about any stone.
I think my next finisher will be a surgical black!
Slawman
Do you do a full Ark progression from bevel set to finish on Arks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel
I would love to know yor method and wich stones you use from bevel to finish.
You might want to send Steel a PM as he hasnt been on in over a week. But hlat leazt he is still around. And he loves the Washita. I know this for a fact.
I think it's because they require pressure to cut fast and the synthetics are faster with much less pressure.Quote:
Originally Posted by kelbro
“Just curious if/why these two workhorses have been put out to pasture by the pros.”
When you hone other folk’s razors, all kinds, in all conditions come through the door. You must set a bevel quickly and efficiently, remove all the defects and at times, usually, do some edge repair. I can count the ones, that just needed a touch-up. Even they get a full bevel set. My personal razors are another story.
Low grit aggressive synthetic or Diamonds are the most efficient, but you must know how deal with the issues these stones can cause, so you use just enough stone to do the job, then hone it on a progression.
And if you want, use an Ark as a finisher. Honing as a business is way different than honing for sport.
You could not make a living running a cabinet or furniture shop with woodworking hand tools. But it is relaxing and fun as a hobby.
A well-known mostly hand too furniture maker/instructor, who descended from a long line of European furniture makers once said, “If my grandfather could have got his hands on an electric router, he sure as hell would have used it.”
There is a distinct difference between modern and vintage washita. The vintage washita is a performer!!! Depending on vintage washita one stone can bevel set to high midrange. I also find vintage washita to be fast And will, raise swarf quickly. They can be a bit finicky and are pressure sensitive. There is a bit of a learning curve with these. If anyone has put a vintage washita out to patsture I would be glad to take it off your hands. The soft ark is another issue. I think for knives is fine but not my go to for razors.
You know, I've heard a couple of people say that about the soft arks but I use one for bevel set as part of a progression and I've been very pleased with the edges I get. Maybe I'm thick but I don't quite see what all the fuss is about. I don't claim to be a genius or an expert but I'm pretty pleased with the edges that I get from that ark progression I've been working with which includes the soft ark. Tell you what, I'll send you one that I've honed bevel set to finish with this method and let you be the judge. I'll even pay return postage. Hell, where you are I could probably drive it over.
A bevel is a bevel is a bevel. 1k chosera? Fast and doesn't leave any mess that isn't easily cleaned up. I prefer the express. Although others may not.
Never said it wasn't. Still I don't recall cleaning up any "messes."
My point is that the chosera leaves a very mellow scratch pattern. I don't see any advantage to using an ark other than to say you did it. I set a bevel on a gold dollar with botan slurry on an ikarashi(natural bevel setter). Took me half hour. I did it once. I had a bevel. Which wasn't better than the one I get on a chosera1 k. Some honing mediums like diamond plates can leave deep scratches that take time to remove. That is the mess I was talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
...but let me put that a different way because I'm not rebutting anything really and not looking for an argument. I have heard a couple of people say they wouldn't use a soft ark on their razors. I'm curious why that is because (as a lark or adventure perhaps it's through ignorance) I have been working on a method using an ark progression. I use the soft ark for bevel set first an I have ha no issues. In fact it is producing nice straight clean bevels that I can shave on. I'm just wondering what the reason is that they seem to be verboten.
Okay, you replied before I finished mine. That makes sense and I get it. There are things that I do in my trade just to stay sharp. My trade is a very, very, very old trade. There have been locks around for literally thousands of years but they are not the same today as they were even 50 years ago when I first started in the business. Actually I started apprenticing over 40 years ago but my father was a locksmith so I have literally have been in and around this business my whole life but anyway there are some methods that we used a long long time ago which we still use today. Some of them have gone by the wayside. I'm the only one in town who will work on those century old plus mortise locks. It's not something that I really make that much money on but that's something that I do for myself more than for the customer. I know that the ark progression with bevel set is akin to that. My question though about the soft ark still stands as to why people won't touch their razor to it.
Even though in my business there are some ways that are easier and faster than the old ways, some of the old ways are still better. A lot of the craftsmanship has gone out of this trade which is a shame because people just don't seem to take the pride in it that they used to. I think that's true of a lot of businesses.
I find some over lap between some soft arks and Washita's on the lower end, but it is much harder to find a fast soft ark. Most of the softs are to hard especially if I have a Washita handy.
Yeah I get that too. But in my defense these are all heirloom stones that belong to my dad. So in some ways I'm doing it just for sentimental reasons. I will say this about my dad though, he didn't fool around when it came to tools. He bought good tools and I've had pretty good luck with these stones so far if that means anything.
Who knows, A year from now or even soon er I may say I don't know why in the hell I was doing that but it's been a fun adventure thus far.
Hi Paul,Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
I have just had a shave with a full Ark progression and I was completely shocked how close and comfortable my shave was, I even felt a difference to my synths.
I received some good suggestions and advice before I started my Ark adventure but this is what I settled on largely because it was I had to hand.
I bought a Washita no1 as you know.
I lapped both sides, one side I lapped to 400 and then took it back to 220 and left it alone. The other side I lapped to 1200 and burnished it.
My Translucent was lapped because it was suggested that Dan’s may feel flat but draw a grid and lap it, it was not as flat as I thought it was.
I lapped one side to 600 and left alone and the other to 1200 and I’m still burnishing it because it takes ages and I’m about half way there.
I use glycerin, largely because it drips on my trousers when I am honing in front of YouTube and it’s water soluble so I can get them clean again in the washing machine.
I start on the course side of the Washita to set the bevel, I don’t find it takes me any cleverness or special naturals technique at this point. I just give it 500 or so assorted but mostly x stroke laps starting with pressure then lightening up for the 4th hundred and no pressure for the last 100. That will easily shave arm or in my case stomach hair,
I then turn it over and do the same on the fine side.
I go to the course side of my Trans and do the same and by now I can tree top some hair.
I go to the fine side and do it again except an extra 100 no pressure.
I give it 20 on fabric and 100 on leather.
I know I have no experience to speak of and I know my edges will get better with time, I would like that because my edges seem pretty damn good to me, just by going at it for hours and hours. Lucky I like playing with my razors eh?
My point at last is that I only use 2 stones. I was advised not to get a soft ark because it was harder to set a bevel on one and it could easily take my edge backward from the washita.
To be completely honest Paul, I wouldn’t know a soft or hard if they bit me on the bum (Unless it was Witten on the box of course).
Excellent Steve! I'm glad to hear that's working out for you. I have a block mounted stone that I think might be a washita. Honestly I'm really not sure. I only know what the ones people have told me are for sure. According to Desrtrat that 1-in by 4-in stone I have been raving about is a hard ark so it's similar to your trans. If you hold it up against a light bulb you can see the glow through it But it's not exactly translucent.
I know you've put a lot of time and energy into that and I'm glad it's paying off for you. You see what I mean though about how crisp and yet smooth at the same time those edges are. If you look at the bevel, the edge is so straight and no chips like I get from my synthetics. And it has that frosty look to it which looks like it was sandblasted almost. At least that's kind of how it looked to me.
Again glad it's working out for you and more than anything I'm glad you're having fun with it.
No need for a defense, we all choose our own paths for different reasons. The easiest path may not be the most rewarding for you, me or others, we are shaving with straight razors after all. Probably plenty of dinosaurs around here....:beer1:Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
Late to the party.
I'm a big fan of arkies and use them for own razors and tools, and for other people if they request it. Start with a soft for the bevel set and run through the stones up through the surgical black arkie. I love the feel of the edges and I like the feedback from the arkies as I hone.
But,
Arkies are slower than synthetics, and in my experience, slower than jnats and coticules. If you are in a hurry or in a time is money situation, then natural stones are not the best choice. So that is a reason not to use them.
Also, being a natural stone, all stones are not created equally. I have run into softs and washitas that I would not use on a thin edge because the stone was too coarse. They would be fine for a wedge razor, but would have destroyed a full hollow. I have also run into softs that I didn't think were soft enough. It's just the nature of natural stones.
If you are actively looking for soft arkies at yard sales, etc. carry a thin blade pocket knife with you and run that blade over the stone. Listen to the sound and feel the vibration in the blade to see if it is the right stone for you. If it is a new stone, remember to burnish it with a steel rod or screwdriver before you use a razor on it.
I find that the frosty edge goes shinier after a good stroppingQuote:
Originally Posted by PaulFLUS
Thanks Cris. Too course huh? I could see that I guess. I don't have experience with that many arks to draw a conclusion. . Just the ones from my Dad. Even that soft medium of his seems pretty hard and smooth to me. Honestly these weren't even his selected stones. These were ones he had put away in a warehouse from when we moved him into assisted living. My brother got the majority of his sharpening stuff, what I got was really leftovers. He had a bunch of ceramic stuff and some other milky looking natural stones. One he called a moonstone. I don't even know what else he had. Anyway they are heirlooms and they remind me of my dad and I'm glad I've been able to make them work well. But thanks for that information. That's what I wanted to know He also had some carborundum stones which I now have and I wouldn't even think about putting my razors on those.
While we're on the topic. Anyone know what this one is?
Attachment 324382
Attachment 324383
This is the block mounted one of Dad's
Looks like one of the hard arkies from Case Brothers around 1960.
Its a very hard smooth rock! Hope that helps. :rofl2:
Nice by the way.
Thanks. I may finish that one up to 3k-5k and try using it for finishing. Currently I'm using it in between the soft medium and the small hard ark.
I started the straight razor journey a few years ago because I got pissed off over the cost of replacement razor cartridges. I bought a Kamisori off the bay, I already had an arm load of arks that I was pretty confident in that I could hone a razor shaving sharp and save a ton of money. I was correct, but really I got lucky. Arks can probably refine any edge, but creating one is another story altogether.
You can take this advice for exactly what you paid for it, but if you are struggling with ark progressions it might be that the arks just don't cut that particular steel well. Don't pussy foot, use pressure. If that doesn't get results it could very well be a compatibility issue. For such razors I come off of coticule's or just shave off a coti edge or JNAT ect.
I'm kind of in the same boat. I had these stones and just by dumb luck I've made a progression that works like a charm. I'm aware that I could get there quicker with a set of synthetics and I still do but I find the honing cathartic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Desrtrat
I would argue the point about if tradesmen had a quicker tool they would use it. Being a tradesman myself I agree to a certain extent but there's a difference between craftsmanship and artisanship. Some of the old ways are slower or more labor intensive but are in some cases better and worth paying for. For example manipulating a safe instead of drilling holes in it. Sure you could strap a drill rig on and bore holes a lot easier but with very high end or very old/historic stuff sometimes you just don't want to do that. Just spend a little time and do it the right way. BUT, you have to know how and the only way to know how is to keep that skill set sharp.
I've got a Chosera 1K also and it does make quick work of steel. I just enjoy stroking those blades across the arks and I gave up hurrying a while back. I spent a lot of time as a young kid sharpening the knives for our family's butcher shop and all we had were carborundum and arks. I had them figured out pretty well when it came to keen edges :)
